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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I am grateful for what he said. However, I should point out that he said that the existing situation with the FEFC already caters for the kind of problem that I put forward. If that is so, it will not solve the problem if the LSC continues to use unit costs as a reason not to give young people with learning difficulties, disabilities and mental handicaps what they need; we will be no further forward. Can the Minister say whether the assurances he has given to my noble friend in regard to normal people will apply also to young people with learning difficulties and disabilities, especially where they need residential education?

Lord Bach: My Lords, in general terms I can give the noble Lord that assurance. I should point out that it is set out clearly in Clauses 13, 14 and 114 of the Bill that the needs of those with learning difficulties will be met. They will not be subject--this is the point that I believe the noble Lord is really concerned about--to narrow cost considerations.

Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. I am a historian and I admire 19th century statutes which defined what they meant. I share the worry of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, that, as it stands, the wording of Clause 2(3)(e),

will be interpreted by school organisation committees, adjudicators and, in the end, the courts. I therefore do not feel that there is anything wrong in proposing a definition of "disproportionate expenditure"; I do not think that I am creating a contradiction; and the amendment will meet the points made by my noble friend Lord Pearson. I am afraid that I must ask for the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

4.22 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 173; Not-Contents, 127.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barber, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bellwin, L.
Belstead, L.
Blackburn, Bp.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bramall, L.
Bridges, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Buxton of Alsa, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L. [Teller]
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L. [Teller]
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Porter of Luddenham, L.
Prior, L.
Pym, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Rennard, L
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakefield, Bp.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Winchester, Bp.
Young, B.


Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Attenborough, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Birt. L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Joffe, L.
Judd, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rix, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

23 Mar 2000 : Column 421

23 Mar 2000 : Column 422

4.32 p.m.

Clause 55 [Right of entry and offences]:

Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 4:

    Page 24, line 12, at end insert--

("( ) In respect of education or training provided by an employer in the workplace, the right of entry conferred by subsection (2) may be exercised only if the employer has been given reasonable notice in writing.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, the intention of this amendment is to place an obligation upon the adult learning inspectorate to give reasonable notice in writing to an employer where it intends to conduct an inspection of workplace education and training provided by that employer.

The House will recall that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, brought forward a similar amendment on Report when she expressed concern that employers might be placed under an undue burden by the new inspectorate. She also argued that we needed the same provisions for England as those which already apply to Wales under Clause 76 of the Bill.

Your Lordships will recall that on behalf of the Government I accepted all her points, although I invited her to withdraw the amendment, which she was kind enough to do, while we reflected on the exact wording. We have now done so and have made a very minor addition for clarification, inserting a reference to Clause 55(2). Otherwise, the amendment is identical to that proposed by the noble Baroness. I have pleasure in commending this change to the House, and I thank the noble Baroness for her assistance. I beg to move.

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