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Lord Williams of Mostyn: The noble Lord will know that I have a particular personal interest in that matter in any event, for reasons that he knows perfectly well. I suggest that we look at the figures for a moment or two. The figures show that, if one

20 Jan 2000 : Column 1294

is black, one is 6 per cent more likely to be found not guilty in the magistrates' court than if one is white and that the same 6 per cent differential obtains in the Crown Court. I agree that perception is important, but I submit that it must never be determinative. Otherwise, people who have the perception that the world remains flat will find great difficulty about their everyday occasions.

I was about to conclude--hear, hear!

A noble Lord: Hear, hear!

Lord Williams of Mostyn: I suppose I should not have attempted to be the ventriloquist.

These are serious issues. I have never put the matter before your Lordships on the basis of cash savings being fundamental. I adhere to what I said at Second Reading. I am talking about resource. The resource of which I am speaking is the delivery of justice. The delivery of justice is not a personal interest of the defendant alone. It is an interest of the prosecutor and of the complainant. It is a fundamental interest to the whole of our community. Our community is entitled to say to us, "Of course the defendant has his personal interest", which I recognise--I have defended year in and year out, as well as prosecuted. If we delay trials because of material in the system which does not need to be there at all--I am not being dismissive when I say "material in the system"; I am using that term statistically--we are fundamentally derelict in the duty that we should be discharging in the general public interest. That is the resource I have in mind and that is the justice to which I am referring.

Lord Cope of Berkeley: We have had a long and most serious debate. I shall not abuse the right I have to delay matters at this point. I commend the amendment.

6.57 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 222; Not-Contents, 126.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barber, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chichester, Bp.
Chilver, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hambro, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L. [Teller]
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Longford, E.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Norfolk, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Hardie, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Owen, L.
Parry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

20 Jan 2000 : Column 1297

Lord Strathclyde: A few moments ago the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General said that if this amendment were passed, it would torpedo the heart of the Bill. I see that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House is in her place. Given that situation, perhaps I may ask her what are now the Government's intentions on the Bill. Given that this is the first time that this new House has defeated the Government on such an important matter and in such an overwhelming way, is it not right that the Government should now withdraw the Bill and not bring it back, considering the voice of this House?


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