House of Lords Journal 232 (Session 1998-99)


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Monday 1 February 1999

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ahmed, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Beaverbrook, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Berkeley, L.
Biddulph, L.
Biffen, L.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bragg, L.
Brentford, V.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carrick, E.
Carter, L.

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Carver, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clyde, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Constantine of Stanmore, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Cross, V.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denman, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Drogheda, E.
Dundonald, E.
Dunrossil, V.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Effingham, E.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Erne, E.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gainford, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Glanusk, L.
Gloucester, Bp.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Gowrie, E.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardie, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Henley, L.
Hesketh, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Islwyn, L.
Iveagh, E.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeffreys, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kennet, L.
Kenyon, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Knights, L.
Knollys, V.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Layton, L.
Leathers, V.
Leigh, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Long, V.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mersey, V.
Meston, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.

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Morris, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Moynihan, L.
Munster, E.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Naseby, L.
Nathan, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Nicol, B.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
Nunburnholme, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Orme, L.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saint Albans, D.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Selborne, E.
Serota, B.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Southwell, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcona and Mt. Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Teviot, L.
Teynham, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warner, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Wise, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Judicial Business

1.Primback Ltd (Respondents) v. Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Appellants)—Upon Report from the Appellate Committee, it was ordered that the following questions be referred to the Court of Justice of the European Communities for a preliminary ruling pursuant to Article 177 of the treaty establishing the European Economic Community:
“1.Where a retailer offers, at a single price, goods and the option of a period of extended credit to pay that price—the credit to be provided by a person other than the retailer, and at no additional cost to the customer—what is the taxable amount for which the retailer must account in respect of the goods supplied, having regard to Articles 11A(1)(a) and 13B(d)(1) of Council Directive 77/388/EEC? In particular, is the taxable amount
(a)the full amount payable by the customer;
(b)the full amount payable by the customer, less the value of the credit;
(c)(if different from (b) above) the amount actually received by the retailer; or
(d)an amount calculated on some other, and if so what, basis?

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2.If the taxable amount is the full amount payable by the customer, less the value of the credit (see Question (1)(b) above), how is that credit to be valued?
3.Is the answer to Question 1 above affected by the fact that
(a)the supply of goods to the customer is described as being on “interest free” credit terms;
(b)the customer signs a loan agreement with a finance house at the time of the sale transaction, the terms of which include
(i)a promise by the finance house to pay the retailer a sum equal to the loan (which was for amount equal to the advertised price of the goods);
(ii)a statement that the interest rate applying to the loan is “0%”; and
(iii)an authorisation by the customer to the finance house for it to pay the full amount of the loan to the retailer and an agreement by the finance house to do so; and
(c)as a result of a separate agreement between the retailer and the finance house (the existence and terms of which are not disclosed to the customer), the sum received by the retailer is a sum less than the full amount of the advertised price for the goods?”.
2.Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Hindley (A.P.) (Appellant) (England)—The appeal of Myra Hindley was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 15th March next. The appellant’s legal aid certificate was lodged.
3.Xydhias (Petitioner) v. Xydhias (A.P.) (Respondent) (lodged 19th January)—The petition of Harry Costas Xydhias praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The respondent’s legal aid certificate was lodged.
4.Ratcliffe (A.P.) (Petitioner) v. G R McConnell and another (sued on their own behalf and on behalf of all other Governors of Harper Adams College) (Respondents) (lodged 29th January)—The petition of Luke William Ratcliffe praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioner’s legal aid certificate was lodged.

Papers

5.Command Papers—The following papers, having been presented to the House by command of Her Majesty on the dates shown, were ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Air Services—Government Response to the 8th Report of the House of Commons Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee, Session 1997–98, on Regional Air Services; (29th January)
 (4257)
2.Education—The BEST for Teaching and Learning in Wales: The BEST Programme Building Excellent Schools Together: Government consultation document; (29th January)
 (4150)
3.Salary Review Bodies—Reports for 1999 of:
(i)The Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body; (1st February)(4242)
(ii)The School Teachers’ Review Body; (1st February)(4244)
(iii)The Review Body for Nursing Staff, Midwives, Health Visitors and Professions Allied to Medicine, on Nursing Staff, Midwives and Health Visitors; (1st February)(4240)
(iv)The Review Body for Nursing Staff, Midwives, Health Visitors and Professions Allied to Medicine, on Professions Allied to Medicine; (1st February)(4241)
(v)The Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration; (1st February)(4243)
(vi)The Review Body on Senior Salaries. (1st February)(4245)
6.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) Order 1999.

7.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Protection of Wrecks (Designation) Order 1999, laid under the Protection of Wrecks Act 1973;
 (186)
2.Housing Revenue Account General Fund Contribution Limits (Scotland) Order 1999, laid under the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987;
 (164)
3.Statute made by Magdalen College, Oxford on 5th October 1998, laid under the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act 1923.
 (—)

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8.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Fourth Edition of Amendments to the Queen’s Regulations for the Royal Air Force, laid under the Air Force (Constitution) Act 1917;
2.Report for 1998 by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions on the number of notices served and directions given by him under certain articles of the Channel Tunnel (Security) Order 1994 and the number of enforcement notices served by authorised persons, laid under that Order;
3.Report by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions on Ordnance Survey, laid under the Government Trading Funds Act 1973;
4.Report for 1998 by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions on the number of notices served and directions given by him under certain sections of the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 and the number of enforcement notices served by authorised persons, laid under that Act;
5.Report for 1998 by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions on the number of notices served and directions given by him under certain sections of the Aviation Security Act 1982 as amended by the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 and the number of enforcement notices served by authorised persons, laid under the Aviation Security Act 1982;
6.Petroleum (Current Model Clauses) Order 1999, laid under the Petroleum Act 1998.
 (160)

Public Business

9.Social Security Contributions (Transfer of Functions, etc.) Bill [HL]—The bill was read a third time; an amendment was moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; a privilege amendment was agreed to; then, after debate, the bill was passed and sent to the Commons.
10.Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed.
11.Sea Fisheries (Shellfish) (Amendment) Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Earl of Lindsay that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

12.Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed after clause 33 stood part.

The House was adjourned at twenty minutes before midnight
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.