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Division No. 1


Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Alanbrooke, V.
Aldenham, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amherst of Hackney, L.
Annaly, L.
Arran, E.
Ashbourne, L.
Balfour of Inchrye, L.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Bathurst, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Belstead, L.
Berners, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Boston, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Buccleuch and Queensberry, D.
Burton, L.
Butterfield, L.
Byron, L.
Caithness, E.
Calverley, L.
Carew, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chesham, L.
Chilston, V.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clinton, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Cornwallis, L.
Cromartie, E.
Cross, V.
Cunliffe, L.
Dartmouth, E.
Davidson, V.
De L'Isle, V.
Denham, L.
Derwent, L.
Devonport, V.
Dilhorne, V.
Donegall, M.
Dudley, E.
Dulverton, L.
Dundee, E.
Dundonald, E.
Dunleath, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Erroll, E.
Exmouth, V.
Falmouth, V.
Ferrers, E. [Teller]
Fisher, L.
Forester, L.
Gage, V.
Gainford, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Gormanston, V.
Gray, L.
Haddington, E.
Halifax, E.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Hampden, V.
Hampton, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Hastings, L.
Hawke, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hothfield, L.
Iliffe, L.
Inchcape, E.
Ironside, L.
Iveagh, E.
Jeffreys, L.
Kemsley, V.
Keyes, L.
Killearn, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Knutsford, V.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leathers, V.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Lloyd-Webber, L.
Long, V.
Lonsdale, E.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Macclesfield, E.
Mackintosh of Halifax, V.
Macpherson of Drumochter, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marks of Broughton, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Mills, V.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montrose, D.
Moran, L.
Morris, L.
Morton, E.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Munster, E.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Napier of Magdala, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Norton, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L. [Teller]
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Plumb, L.
Pym, L.
Reading, M.
Reay, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Saint Albans, D.
St. Germans, E.
Saint Levan, L.
Saint Oswald, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Sandys, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shuttleworth, L.
Sidmouth, V.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Spens, L.
Stair, E.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stockton, E.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffield, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swansea, L.
Swinton, E.
Tebbit, L.
Teynham, L.
Torphichen, L.
Torrington, V.
Townshend, M.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Verulam, E.
Waterford, M.
Wedgwood, L.
Weir, V.
Wigram, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winchester, M.
Wise, L.
Wrenbury, L.
Wynford, L.
Yarborough, E.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Attenborough, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clwyd, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Digby, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gifford, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glanusk, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hankey, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northfield, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Patel, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Templeman, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Vinson, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Dartington, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

26 Oct 1999 : Column 215

6.15 p.m.

Lord Clifford of Chudleigh moved Amendment No. 16:

After Clause 3, insert the following new clause--


(" . Section 1 shall not apply in respect of any proceedings in the House of Lords on a constitutional bill or a bill including constitutional provisions, and any person who is or becomes the holder of a hereditary peerage shall be entitled to sit and vote on such proceedings.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am glad that the House has had the opportunity of a preamble to my amendments. I do not believe that my first statement will come as a surprise to anyone in the House. Many hours have been devoted to debating the merits of reforming this revising Chamber. The many words written in newspapers, magazines and articles that cover the same subject indicate the size, nature and importance of this constitutional beast.

Those of us who read Sir Robin Day's article in the Daily Telegraph on 2nd September will be aware that he listed the occasions on which this House had been subject to review since the Reform Act 1832. He quoted the Reform Acts 1867 and 1887, the Ballot Act 1872 and the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, as well as the Life Peerages Act 1958. Those and other reforms have, step by step, broadened and transformed our Parliament as upholder of the democratic

26 Oct 1999 : Column 216

constitution. Surely, no one can argue that Members of this House are, or have been, blind to its faults over the past 100 years.

I remind another place that this House agreed to a massive reform of its composition and influence some 21 years ago, only to be turned down by the House of Commons. It was with deep regret, and obvious surprise, that on 30th March we heard the noble Lord, Lord Randall of St Budeaux, say that he had met with an "unexpected feeling of hatred" within the corridors and Benches of this House. I admired the contents of his well balanced speech but was shaken by his initial impression that this was a "House of Hate".

I turn to the former Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and to the present holder of that office, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, and request that they examine their consciences, for they have not appeased but propagated the unnecessary feeling of spite--"SPITE" being an acronym for "socialist ploys inclined towards envy"--that has marred such an important period during which we have been negotiating the future of this country's constitution.

As a hereditary Peer, I am likely to have been slighted for a greater period of my life than many life Peers because I have a title, or was born with a title (if that is a little more pleasing). For the Leader of the House to slight me out of spite and to belittle hereditary Peers as nothing better than Armed Forces material or farmers--I hope that the Chief Whip also notes this--ruffles the feathers somewhat. When another place posts our peace-keepers to Bosnia, Kosovo, Northern Ireland and now East Timor, and the present Government appear to show continued disrespect for farmers' support of the rural way of life, we in this House are supposed to act like parliamentarians and not be subject to a system of "flooding" by politicians. Surely such a bias smacks of power preservation by the executive--the Cabinet, the leaders of the policy-making body which regulates this country's future. Surely both Houses of Parliament can credit this nation's population with sufficient intelligence to note that such a bias is designed to benefit the fat cats of the Cabinet.

Since 1997 more and more electoral privileges, human rights and choices have been removed or outlawed by another place; and yet, when it comes to making a monumental constitutional choice as to who should monitor our legislators and harness the possible dictatorial nature of the executive's wishes, this House has been persuaded against holding a referendum--asking the people their opinion about how well this House, as it is composed, reflects public opinion on farming, Europe, demands on the Armed Forces, education, pensions, the disabled, health, management of our services, the infrastructure, and so on.

The Government were elected as the people's choice by 30 per cent, or thereabouts, of the electorate on what they promised in their manifesto. I agree that the removal of hereditary Peers was one of the intentions expressed in the Labour Party manifesto, but so was a

26 Oct 1999 : Column 217

freedom of information Bill, better standards of education, shorter waiting lists for medical attention, and the removal of sleaze--the usual political bilge that the electorate expect at every single election. They were promised a referendum on Europe. Do they really think that they will have one? Those in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales were lucky. They were given a referendum on a matter of constitutional importance: devolution. This House, this body of mature individuals, does not pretend to be anything but a practical listening institution which hopes and endeavours to work with the elected Chamber in good faith to produce sound legislation for entry on to the statute book.

Although, like another place, we are subject to lobbyists, most of us are at, or close to, the zenith of our careers and do not care for being lectured on, or told repeatedly, our responsibility and duty. But having considered the House of Lords Bill in full, and having been told that we are to elect 90 hereditary Peers for an interim Chamber two months before the Royal Commission presents its report on a proposed interim Chamber, it is clear that this House of Parliament is being subjected to arrogant bullying, not the considered opinion the nation expects from its leaders.

Parliaments should be able to distinguish between mere casual opinion, which should not be paramount, and the way laws affect people's livelihood and settled way of life. If they do not do so, they will encourage and be subject to media rule, a mode espoused by fascists and communists alike. Such extremists are permitted to introduce whatever takes their fancy under a smokescreen of misinformation and a persistent drizzle of indoctrination.

Taking account of the well considered statements made by your Lordships since 1998 acknowledging our role as the final revising body of Parliament, and not abrogating that responsibility, it is clear that the House of Lords Bill contains defects and requires redrafting.

I recognise that many noble Lords have offered themselves for election by their hereditary Peers on 3rd November. Seventy-five may attain that goal. By considering the legal facts, the details given to noble Lords on the subject of the constitution, and taking notice of their consciences, noble Lords will see that the fair governance of this country is most important. I remind your Lordships that infidelity to the truth destroys dignity. I beg to move.

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