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Earl Attlee: My Lords, I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, moving his amendment. For myself, I would certainly not like to see a PPP offering poor value. However, I suspect that the Minister will offer the noble Lord a similar response to the one that I received on my previous amendment.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, this amendment requires the Secretary of State to carry out a public sector comparator exercise before any PPP contracts are signed to show that the contracts are at least comparable on value for money grounds with the Underground remaining within the public sector.

As my noble friend Lord Whitty explained in Committee, the Government are already committed to testing the PPP for value for money against a public sector comparator. We have made it clear time and again that we have no intention of proceeding with any aspect of the PPP unless we are convinced that the contracts offer best value for passengers and taxpayers.

I turn now to the question of publishing the findings. Although some factors may need to remain commercially confidential between the parties, it is our intention to put as much information as practical into the public domain, including the construction of the public sector comparator. The details will be subject to scrutiny by the National Audit Office, which will be looking for reassurance that the competition has been handled properly and that best value was obtained for the taxpayer.

However, we do not think that an obligation to carry out and then publish the details of the public sector comparator is necessary. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I must admit that I was somewhat baffled by the logic of his final paragraph. The noble Lord made the very welcome commitment to carry out the public sector comparator; indeed, he said that the Government had no intention of proceeding with a PPP agreement unless that was carried out. He also added that as much information

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as possible would be put into the public domain. However, he then said that it was not appropriate to put that on the face of the Bill. It seems to us that that would be a very important reassurance to the public that these PPP agreements, which are normal but about which many people have misgivings, should clearly be seen to be as good value as public financing.

Nevertheless, I shall carefully consider the Minister's reply in Hansard, but we may well wish to return to this matter at a future stage. Having accepted the obligation so clearly and also the obligation to publish, I, for one, do not really understand why this provision should not appear on the face of the Bill. But, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 188 [Key system assets]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 428 and 429:


Page 103, line 37, leave out (“the relevant authority") and insert (“a relevant body").
Page 103, line 40, leave out (“the relevant authority") and insert (“a relevant body").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 189 [Register of key system assets]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 430 to 433:


Page 104, line 4, at end insert (“, except as provided by subsection (2A) below").
Page 104, line 10, at end insert--
(“(2A) The register need not contain an entry in respect of any particular key system asset or description of key system assets if the relevant authority, with the consent of the PPP company concerned, keeps the requisite copy documents available for inspection by the public at all reasonable hours free of charge.
(2B) For the purposes of this section the “requisite copy documents", in the case of any particular key system asset or description of key system assets, are copies of--
(a) the document which contains the designation under paragraph (a) or (b) of section 188(1) above, and
(b) such other documents (if any) as may be necessary to disclose the information which would (apart from subsection (2A) above) be required to be stated in the register,
or of such extracts from those documents as disclose the designation or, as the case may be, the information concerned.").
Page 104, line 13, after (“register") insert (“, or any requisite copy documents available for inspection under subsection (2A) above,").
Page 104, line 14, at end insert (“or requisite copy documents").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 190 [Related third party agreements]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 434 to 437:


Page 104, line 23, leave out (“a third party") and insert (“another person (a “PPP related third party")").
Page 104, line 31, after second (“the") insert (“PPP related").
Page 104, line 34, at end insert (“PPP related").
Page 104, line 36, after first (“the") insert (“PPP related").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1060

Clause 191 [Protection of key system assets]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 438 and 439:


Page 105, line 10, leave out subsection (5) and insert--
(“(5) Where a PPP agreement makes provision for or in connection with the transfer to a successor body at any time--
(a) of any shares in a PPP company, or
(b) of any key system assets,
the relevant authority shall ensure that the PPP agreement includes provision specifying, or providing for the determination of, the amounts which are to be paid in respect of those shares or key system assets.
(5A) In subsection (5) above, “successor body" means--
(a) a relevant body;
(b) a PPP company; or
(c) a PPP related third party.
(5B) Any reference in this section to a PPP company or PPP related third party includes a reference to a body or person which has been or is to be such a company or party.").
After Clause 191, insert the following new clause--

SCHEMES FOR THE TRANSFER OF KEY SYSTEM ASSETS

(“ .--(1) Transport for London may make schemes for the transfer of key system assets from any body falling within subsection (2) below to any other such body.
(2) Those bodies are--
(a) Transport for London;
(b) any subsidiary of Transport for London;
(c) any PPP company;
(d) any PPP related third party.
(3) A scheme under this section shall not take effect unless and until it has been approved by the Mayor.
(4) The transfers which may be made by virtue of a scheme under this section include transfers taking effect before, on or after the expiration of the term of the PPP agreement or PPP related third party agreement by reference to which the transferor or transferee under the scheme falls within subsection (2) above.
(5) No scheme under this section for the transfer of key system assets from or to--
(a) a PPP company, or
(b) a PPP related third party,
may be made otherwise than in accordance with the terms of the PPP agreement or PPP related third party agreement by reference to which the PPP company or PPP related third party falls within subsection (2) above.
(6) In this section--
(a) any reference to key system assets includes a reference to property, rights or liabilities which have been or are to be such assets; and
(b) any reference to a PPP company or PPP related third party includes a reference to a body or person which has been or is to be such a company or party.
(7) Schedule (Transport for London transfer schemes) to this Act (which makes further provision in relation to schemes under this section) shall have effect.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 192 [PPP leases]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 440 to 446:


Page 105, line 29, leave out from (“lease") to end of line 31.
Page 105, line 38, leave out (“for the PPP company's use").
Page 105, line 42, after second (“the") insert (“PPP").
Page 106, line 1, after second (“the") insert (“PPP").

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1061


Page 106, line 2, after second (“the") insert (“PPP").
Page 106, line 4, after (“the") insert (“PPP").
Page 106, line 5, after (“the") insert (“PPP").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 447 and 448:


Before Schedule 10, insert the following new schedule--

(“SCHEDULE
TRANSPORT FOR LONDON TRANSFER SCHEMES
Interpretation

1. In this Schedule--
“transfer scheme" means--
(a) a scheme under section (Distribution of property, rights or liabilities) of this Act; or
(b) a scheme under section (Schemes for the transfer of key system assets) of this Act;
“transferor" means the person from whom property, rights or liabilities are transferred by a transfer scheme;
“transferee" means a person to whom any such property, rights or liabilities are so transferred.
Contents of transfer schemes

2.--(1) The property, rights and liabilities which may be transferred by a transfer scheme include property, rights and liabilities which would not otherwise be capable of being transferred or assigned.
(2) No right of reverter, right of pre-emption, right of forfeiture, right of re-entry, right to compensation, option or similar right affecting any land or other property, and no right to terminate or vary a contract, shall operate or become exercisable as a result of any transfer of land or other property by virtue of a transfer scheme, or any instrument or agreement made in connection with a transfer scheme, whether or not any consent required to the transfer has been obtained.
(3) Any such right or option shall accordingly have effect in the case of any such transfer as if--
(a) the transferee in relation to that transfer were the same person in law as the transferor; and
(b) no transfer of the land or other property had taken place.
(4) Sub-paragraph (3) above is without prejudice to section 356 of this Act or any other provision made by or under this Act which makes transitional provision in relation to a transfer.
(5) Sub-paragraphs (2) to (4) above shall have effect in relation to--
(a) the grant or creation of an estate or interest in, or right over, any land or other property, or
(b) the doing of any other thing in relation to land or other property,
as they have effect in relation to a transfer of land or other property.
(6) No right to terminate or vary a contract, and no other rights under a contract, shall operate or become exercisable by reason of any transfer of shares by virtue of a transfer scheme.
Apportionment and division

3.--(1) A transfer scheme may make provision for the apportionment or division of any property, rights or liabilities.
(2) Where a transfer scheme makes provision for the apportionment or division between two or more persons of any rights or liabilities under a contract, the contract shall have effect, as from the coming into force of the provision, as if it constituted two or more separate contracts separately enforceable by and against each of those persons respectively as respects the part of the rights or liabilities which falls to him as a result of the apportionment or division.

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1062

Definition of the property, rights and liabilities transferred

4. A transfer scheme may define the property, rights and liabilities to be transferred--
(a) by specifying or describing them;
(b) by referring to all (or all except anything specified or described) of the property, rights and liabilities comprised in a specified part of the undertaking of the transferor; or
(c) partly in the one way and partly in the other.
Other provision that may be made by a transfer scheme

5. The provision that may be made by a transfer scheme includes provision--
(a) for the creation, in relation to any land or other property which the scheme transfers, of an estate or interest in or right over the property in favour of the transferor;
(b) for the creation, in favour of a transferee, of an estate or interest in or right over any land or other property retained by the transferor or transferred by the scheme to another transferee;
(c) for the creation of rights or liabilities as between two or more transferees or as between one or more transferees and the transferor;
(d) for any rights or liabilities specified or described in the scheme to be, or to be to any extent, enforceable by or against two or more transferees, or by or against one or more transferees and the transferor;
(e) for imposing on the transferor or a transferee an obligation to enter into written agreements with, or execute other instruments in favour of, the transferor, or that or any other transferee, or such other person as may be specified in the scheme.
Power to make supplementary etc provision

6. A transfer scheme may make such supplementary, incidental, consequential or transitional provision, or savings, as Transport for London considers appropriate.
Functions under local Acts or Transport and Works Act orders

7.--(1) A transfer scheme may provide that any functions of the transferor under a relevant statutory provision--
(a) shall be transferred to the transferee;
(b) shall be concurrently exercisable by two or more transferees; or
(c) shall be concurrently exercisable by the transferor and one or more transferees.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) above applies in relation to any function under a relevant statutory provision if and to the extent that the relevant statutory provision--
(a) relates to any property which is to be transferred by the scheme; or
(b) authorises the carrying out of works designed to be used in connection with any such property or the acquisition of land for the purpose of carrying out any such works.
(3) A transfer scheme which makes provision by virtue of this paragraph shall not have effect unless and until it is confirmed by an order made by the Secretary of State.
(4) In this paragraph “relevant statutory provision" means any provision, whether of a general or of a special nature, contained in, or in any document made or issued under--
(a) any local Act; or
(b) any order under the Transport and Works Act 1992.
Effect of transfer scheme

8. On the date appointed by a transfer scheme, the property, rights and liabilities which are the subject of the scheme shall, by virtue of this paragraph, be transferred in accordance with the provisions of the scheme.

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1063

Continuity

9.--(1) Nothing in this Act affects the validity of anything done by or in relation to the transferor in connection with anything transferred by a transfer scheme.
(2) There may be continued by or in relation to the transferee anything (including legal proceedings) which--
(a) relates to anything transferred by a transfer scheme, and
(b) is in the process of being done by or in relation to the transferor immediately before the transfer takes effect.
(3) Anything which--
(a) was done by the transferor for the purposes of or otherwise in connection with anything transferred by a transfer scheme, and
(b) is in effect immediately before the transfer takes effect,
shall have effect as if done by the transferee.
(4) The transferee shall be substituted for the transferor in any instruments, contracts or legal proceedings which--
(a) relate to anything transferred by a transfer scheme, and
(b) are made or commenced before the transfer takes effect.
(5) Any reference in this paragraph to anything done by or in relation to the transferor includes a reference to anything which by virtue of any enactment is treated as having been done by or in relation to the transferor.
Transfer of employees

10.--(1) This paragraph applies where a person employed by the transferor becomes an employee of the transferee by virtue of a transfer scheme.
(2) Anything done by or in relation to the transferor in respect of the employee before the day on which the transfer takes effect shall be treated on and after that day as done by or in relation to the transferee.
(3) For the purposes of Part “I of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (redundancy payments etc) the employee shall not be regarded as having been dismissed by virtue of the transfer.
(4) For the purposes of that Act--
(a) the employee's period of employment with the transferor shall count as a period of employment with the transferee; and
(b) the change of employment shall not break the continuity of the period of employment.
Provision of information to Transport for London

11.--(1) Where Transport for London proposes to make a transfer scheme under section (Schemes for the transfer of key system assets) of this Act, it may direct any person to whom, or from whom, property is to be transferred under the scheme--
(a) to provide the Transport for London with such information as Transport for London considers necessary to enable it to make the scheme; and
(b) to do so within such time (being not less than 28 days from the giving of the direction) as may be specified in the direction.
(2) If a person fails to comply with a direction under sub-paragraph (1) above, Transport for London may serve a notice on him requiring him--
(a) to produce to Transport for London, at a time and place specified in the notice, any documents which are specified or described in the notice and are in his custody or under his control; or
(b) to provide to Transport for London, at a time and place and in the form and manner specified in the notice, such information as may be specified or described in the notice.
(3) No person shall be required under this paragraph--
(a) to produce any documents which he could not be compelled to produce in civil proceedings in the court; or

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1064


(b) in complying with any requirement for the provision of information, to provide any information which he could not be compelled to give in evidence in any such proceedings.
(4) A person who without reasonable excuse fails to do anything required of him by a notice under sub-paragraph (2) above is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
(5) A person who intentionally alters, suppresses or destroys any document which he has been required to produce by a notice under sub-paragraph (2) above is guilty of an offence and liable--
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine.
(6) If a person makes default in complying with a notice under sub-paragraph (2) above, the court may, on the application of Transport for London, make such order as the court thinks fit for requiring the default to be made good.
(7) Any such order may provide that all the costs or expenses of and incidental to the application shall be borne by the person in default or by any officers of a company or other association who are responsible for its default.
(8) In this paragraph--
(a) any reference to the production of a document includes a reference to the production of a legible and intelligible copy of information recorded otherwise than in legible form; and
(b) the reference to suppressing a document includes a reference to destroying the means of reproducing information recorded otherwise than in legible form.
(9) In this paragraph “the court" means the High Court.
Modification of transfer scheme

12.--(1) If at any time after a transfer scheme has come into force--
(a) the transferor,
(b) any transferee affected, and
(c) Transport for London, if not falling within paragraph (a) or (b) above,
so agree in writing, the scheme shall for all purposes be deemed to have come into force with such modifications as may be specified in the agreement.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) above does not apply in relation to modifications relating to the transfer of rights and liabilities under a contract of employment, unless the employee concerned is a party to the agreement.
(3) An agreement under sub-paragraph (1) above--
(a) may make, with effect from the coming into force of the scheme, such provision as could have been made by the scheme; and
(b) in connection with giving effect to that provision from that time, may contain incidental, supplemental, consequential or transitional provision.
(4) Transport for London may only enter into an agreement under sub-paragraph (1) above with the consent of the Mayor.
(5) The Mayor, in giving his consent under sub-paragraph (4) above to an agreement in respect of a scheme under section (Distribution of property, rights and liabilities) of this Act, may make it a condition of the consent that such further modifications to the scheme as he may specify in giving the consent are to be included in the agreement.
(6) No modification may be specified by the Mayor under sub-paragraph (5) above which could not have been included in the agreement apart from that sub-paragraph.").

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1065


Before Schedule 10, insert the following new schedule--
(“SCHEDULE
PROMOTION OF BILLS IN PARLIAMENT BY TRANSPORT FOR LONDON
Preliminary requirements

1. No Bill may be deposited in Parliament by virtue of section (Power of Transport for London to promote or oppose Bills in Parliament)(1)(a) of this Act until the requirements of paragraph 2 below have been complied with.
Consultation on draft Bill

2.--(1) Transport for London shall--
(a) prepare a draft of the proposed Bill (“the draft Bill");
(b) send copies of the draft Bill to the bodies and persons specified in sub-paragraph (2) below; and
(c) consult those bodies and persons about the draft Bill.
(2) Those bodies and persons are--
(a) the Mayor;
(b) the Assembly;
(c) every London borough council; and
(d) the Common Council.
(3) Where Transport for London sends copies of the draft Bill to those bodies and persons pursuant to sub-paragraph (1)(b) above, it shall also give those bodies and persons notice of the time within which, and the place at which, they may make representations about the draft Bill.
Publicity for, and exposure of, the draft Bill

3.--(1) Throughout the consultation period, Transport for London shall take such steps as in its opinion will give adequate publicity to the draft Bill.
(2) A copy of the draft Bill shall be kept available by Transport for London for inspection by any person on request free of charge--
(a) at the principal offices of Transport for London, and
(b) at such other places as Transport for London considers appropriate,
at reasonable hours throughout the consultation period.
(3) A copy of the draft Bill, or of any part of the draft Bill, shall be supplied to any person on request during the consultation period for such reasonable fee as Transport for London may determine.
(4) In this paragraph “the consultation period" means the period which--
(a) begins with the first day after the requirements of paragraph 2(1)(b) above have been complied with; and
(b) ends with the time notified pursuant to paragraph 2(3) above.
Deposition of the Bill in Parliament

4.--(1) If, after the requirements of paragraph 2 above have been complied with, a Bill is deposited in Parliament by virtue of section (Power of Transport for London to promote or oppose Bills in Parliament)(1)(a) of this Act, that Bill must be in the form of the draft Bill, either as originally prepared or as modified to take account of--
(a) representations made pursuant to paragraph 2 above;
(b) other representations made within the consultation period; or
(c) other material considerations.
(2) In this paragraph “the consultation period" has the same meaning as in paragraph 3 above.

19 Oct 1999 : Column 1066

Bills affecting powers of London local authorities

5. If a Bill proposed to be deposited in Parliament by virtue of section (Power of Transport for London to promote or oppose Bills in Parliament)(1)(a) of this Act contains provisions affecting the exercise of statutory functions by a London local authority, the Bill shall not be deposited in Parliament unless--
(a) in a case where the statutory functions of one London local authority are affected, that authority has given its written consent to the Bill in the form in which it is to be so deposited; or
(b) in a case where the statutory functions of two or more London local authorities are affected, at least 90 per cent. of all London local authorities have given their written consent to the Bill in that form.
(2) In this paragraph “London local authority" means--
(a) a London borough council; or
(b) the Common Council.
Publicity for the deposited Bill

6.--(1) This paragraph applies where a Bill (“the deposited Bill") is deposited in Parliament by virtue of section (Power of Transport for London to promote or oppose Bills in Parliament)(1)(a) of this Act.
(2) During the period of 14 days following the day on which the deposited Bill is deposited in Parliament, Transport for London shall take such steps as in its opinion will give adequate publicity to the Bill.
(3) A copy of the deposited Bill shall be kept available by Transport for London for inspection by any person on request free of charge--
(a) at the principal offices of Transport for London, and
(b) at such other places as Transport for London considers appropriate,
at reasonable hours throughout the period while the Bill is in Parliament.
(4) A copy of the deposited Bill, or of any part of the deposited Bill, shall be supplied to any person on request during that period for such reasonable fee as Transport for London may determine.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule ll [Transfer of relevant activities in connection with PPP administration orders]:


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