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Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addison, V.
Ahmed, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amherst of Hackney, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Barber, L.
Barnard, L.
Bathurst, E.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Berkeley, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Biffen, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bragg, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrick, E.
Carter, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clwyd, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Congleton, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Crook, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dacre, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De L'Isle, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Diamond, L.
Dinevor, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Downshire, M.
Drogheda, E.
Dubs, L.
Dudley, E.
Dulverton, L.
Dundee, E.
Dundonald, E.
Dunleath, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Effingham, E.
Elibank, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Gainford, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Glanusk, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Habgood, L.
Hacking, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Haslam, L.
Hastings, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchyra, L.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kennet, L.
Kenyon, L.
Kindersley, L.
Kingsdown, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leathers, V.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Macclesfield, E.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackintosh of Halifax, V.
Mallalieu, B.
Malmesbury, E.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mills, V.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Kenwood, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newall, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parry, L.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radnor, E.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Richmond, Lennox and Gordon, D.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Saatchi, L.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sempill, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Simpson of Dunkeld, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Tenby, V. [Teller.]
Teynham, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L. [Teller.]
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Weir, V.
Wharton, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Woolton, E.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.


Alanbrooke, V.
Balfour of Inchrye, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blyth, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L. [Teller.]
Clinton, L.
Coleraine, L.
Davidson, V.
De Freyne, L.
Devonport, V.
Donegall, M.
Ellenborough, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Gray, L.
Haddington, E.
Hampden, V.
Hemphill, L.
Hooson, L.
Iddesleigh, E.
Long, V.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Nelson, E.
Northesk, E. [Teller.]
Nunburnholme, L.
Rennell, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Sudeley, L.
Waterford, M.
Westbury, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

11 May 1999 : Column 1138

6.43 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 32 to 49 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

[Amendments Nos. 50 and 51 not moved.]

Lord Rowallan moved Amendment No. 52:

After Clause 1, insert the following new clause--


(" .--(1) Section 1 does not apply to any person who, on the day on which this Act is passed--
(a) is a member of the House of Lords by virtue of a hereditary peerage, and
(b) in the Session of Parliament preceding the Session in which this Act is passed, attended that House or a committee of that House for at least one third of the total number of days on which the House sat,
and that person shall remain a member of the House of Lords for their life.
(2) The Clerk of the Parliaments shall certify--
(a) the total number of days on which the House sat,
(b) the total number of days required to fulfil subsection (1)(b), and
(c) the total number of days of attendance of each member.")

The noble Lord said: I am concerned about the performance we have just witnessed. I believe that the House has been treated in a rather cavalier fashion. The same happened when I wished to speak to an amendment on the first day in Committee, at eleven o'clock. If noble Lords read col. 1149 of the Official Report of 20th April, it quite clearly states that fact. Unfortunately the noble and learned Lord Falconer of Thoroton spoke and that was the end of that.

The subject was raised again by my noble friend Lord Caithness the following Committee day and was debated. Although much of what I wish to say has already been debated, I still want to get my points over to the Committee of this House.

11 May 1999 : Column 1139

On 20th April, at col. 1145 of the Official Report, the noble Lord, Lord Sawyer, said:

    "People in the wider society do not expect to advance themselves, to get a job or to make their way in society on the basis of the merits of their father, their grandfather or their great grandfather ... Fundamentally, I believe that that is extremely simple and I think it is on that simple basis that this Bill should proceed". Society has worked well, both in the trade union world and the business world, on the basis of inheritance. We have seen it happen in so many industries when father hands over his job to son. It is nonsense to say otherwise.

My amendment is simple. It states that hereditary Peers should be allowed to die out. The reference is to working hereditary Peers, although I prefer to refer to active hereditary Peers. It is interesting that the word "active" reduces at a stroke the number of hereditary Peers to 225 from the 750 who are entitled to attend this House. So immediately we reduce the number enormously. It does not take long to get down to the numbers of which we talked in the debate on the previous amendment which have now been agreed by the Government and the Whole House as acceptable. The figure reduces to below that number very quickly indeed.

I could have supported the Weatherill agreement if the second stage was not taking place. But I find it difficult to support the proposal--I did not vote--when it refers only to a limited period. In this Chamber, which works so well with all Peers being equal, we should all be in the same boat. At present I believe that we are heading for a crisis. To have two tiers of Peers will be very difficult indeed.

My proposal cuts out all the aggravation which seems to be creeping in. I believe that that is commendable. Two large government tomes will be before us shortly: the Greater London Authority Bill and the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill. Both have about 200 clauses. The Government have many measures to bring forward. Most are extremely laudable. But we seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time discussing reform of the House of Lords. I was happy to agree with the noble Lord Bruce of Donington that we should concentrate on what this House does rather than its composition. We have spent many days in Committee already, and have hardly progressed through the Bill. We still have Report stage and Third Reading.

Even in the debate on the Weatherill amendment no specific course for reform of the House had universal popularity. Let us get on with governing and stop tinkering with the constitution. With my amendment, the hereditary Peers die out quickly without the aggravation and I commend it to the House. I beg to move.

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