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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor referred to the pressures on members of the private Bar and solicitors. The greatest pressure on those who are engaged in criminal practice is the ethos of the profession, which puts the interests of the defendant alone above everything else, even including advancement in a judicial career. That is what binds together noble Lords on all sides of the House for whose support in this debate I am grateful. That is what binds the noble Baronesses, Lady Mallalieu, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and Lady Scotland, my noble friend Lord Hutchinson, the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, and myself. One is concerned to protect the dynamics of the criminal Bar and the ethos of that profession.

The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, said that we were resistant to change. What is the need for change? That was the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle. With the greatest respect to the Lord Chancellor, he has not demonstrated any need for change. He says that our proposals are based on anecdote, not evidence. The noble and learned Lord does not even have anecdotes to support his position; he has no evidence. No research has been carried out.

16 Feb 1999 : Column 569

The noble and learned Lord made reference to what happened in foreign jurisdictions. In the course of my speech to your Lordships I drew attention to the fact that in the United States the Department of Justice was deeply concerned about the way in which indigent defence systems worked there. In 13 states the systems are precisely akin to that which is now proposed by the noble and learned Lord.

We on these Benches believe in value for money, but we do not interpret "value" to mean the disposal of a case. We interpret the value that is achieved for the money that is expended on defence services as the degree to which the interests of the defendant have been protected by his advocate in court, whether it be a solicitor or barrister. I am not satisfied with the answers that the noble and learned Lord has given and I seek to obtain the opinion of the House.

4.28 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 97) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 189; Not-Contents, 134.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Blackburn, Bp.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterfield, L.
Butterworth, L.
Caithness, E.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Dholakia, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Dundee, E.
Elibank, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Erne, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Gainford, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gisborough, L.
Glanusk, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller.]
Higgins, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooson, L.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kintore, E.
Knollys, V.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawrence, L.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Macclesfield, E.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
McNair, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Merrivale, L.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Moynihan, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Newall, L.
Newby, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sandford, L.
Sandwich, E.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stair, E.
Strathclyde, L.
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L. [Teller.]
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Weir, V.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Wise, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Attenborough, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hacking, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nunburnholme, L.
Orme, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

16 Feb 1999 : Column 571

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