House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)

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Tuesday 16 December 1997

The House met at two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Abercorn, D.
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alport, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Barber, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Beaverbrook, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Bellwin, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Berkeley, L.
Biffen, L.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blackburn, Bp.
Blackstone, B.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradford, Bp.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brentford, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.

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Brookeborough, V.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burlison, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Canterbury, Abp.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carter, L.
Carver, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Constantine of Stanmore, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Freyne, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dundee, E.
Dundonald, E.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Exmouth, V.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Flowers, L.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gainford, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Gallacher, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gerard, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gormanston, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Granard, E.
Gray, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hacking, L.
Haddington, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harlech, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hunt, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Tanworth, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inchcape, E.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jeffreys, L.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilmarnock, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Knollys, V.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Layton, L.
Leathers, V.
Leicester, Bp.
Leigh, L.
Lestor of Eccles, B.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lockwood, B.
Long, V.
Longford, E.
Lowry, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
MacLehose of Beoch, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.

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Malmesbury, E.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mersey, V.
Meston, L.
Middleton, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monkswell, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mountevans, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Naseby, L.
Newall, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Orme, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perth, E.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Renwick, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rowallan, L.
Runcie, L.
Runciman of Doxford, V.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury, L.
Saint Albans, D.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scanlon, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sempill, L.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Sharples, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Smith, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soper, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Spens, L.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Tenby, V.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Varley, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Westmorland, E.
Whaddon, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Windlesham, L.
Wise, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.

Judicial Business

1.Clydesdale Bank plc (Respondents) v. Davidson (A.P.) (Appellant) and others (First Appeal) (Scotland)—
2.Clydesdale Bank plc (Respondents) v. Davidson (A.P.) (Appellant) and others (Second Appeal) (Scotland)—

(Consolidated appeals)—

The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Interlocutor of the Second Division of the Court of Session of 24th November 1995 be

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affirmed and the appeals dismissed with costs; and that the amount of the respondents’ costs in this House, to be paid by the appellant as an assisted person, be modified to nil under the provisions of the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 1986.

3.Regina v. Martin (Appellant) (On Appeal from Her Majesty’s Courts-Martial Appeal Court)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Courts-Martial Appeal Court of 30th July 1996 be affirmed and the appeal dismissed.
4.Loughran (Respondent) v. Northern Ireland Housing Executive (Appellants) (Northern Ireland)—
5.Kelly (Appellant) v. Northern Ireland Housing Executive (Respondents) (Northern Ireland)—

The petition of the appellants praying that the appeals be conjoined, and that they might have leave to lodge one statement, one appendix and one case each in their capacity as appellants/respondents and be separately represented in respect of the two appeals (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.


6.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

Monopolies and Mergers Commission—MMC Reports on the merger situations between—

(i)National Express Group PLC and ScotRail Railways Limited;(3773)
(ii)National Express Group PLC and Central Trains Limited.(3774)
7.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Financial Provisions (Northern Ireland) Order 1998.

8.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Mackerel (Specified Sea Areas) (Prohibition of Fishing) Order 1997, laid under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967;
2.Local Government Act 1988 (Defined Activities) (Exemption) (Bath and North East Somerset District Council) Order 1997, laid under the Local Government Act 1988;
3.London Docklands Development Corporation (Planning Functions) Order 1997, laid under the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980;
4.Specified Risk Material Regulations 1997, laid under the Food Safety Act 1990;
5.National Health Service Trusts (Membership and Procedure) Amendment Regulations 1997, laid under the National Health Service Act 1977.
9.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Specified Risk Material Order 1997, laid under the Animal Health Act 1981;
2.Report and Accounts for 1996–97 of the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, laid under the Environment Act 1995;
3.Accounts for 1996–97 of the National Museums and Galleries on Merseyside, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Merseyside Museums and Galleries Order 1986;
4.Accounts for 1996–97 of the National Maritime Museum, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Museums and Galleries Act 1992;
5.Report and Accounts for 1996–97 of the Local Government Residuary Body (England), laid under the Local Government Residuary Body (England) Order 1995;
6.Report for 1996–97 of the Council on Tribunals, laid under the Tribunals and Enquiries Act 1992.

Select Committee Report

10.Statutory Instruments—The 17th Report from the Joint Committee was made on certain statutory instruments; it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 52)

Public Business

11.Standing Orders (Public Business)—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that the Standing Orders relating to public business be amended as follows—

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Standing Order 62

Line 7, leave out “Broadcasting Committee”;

Line 9, leave out “Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee” and insert “Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee”;

After Standing Order 70

Insert the following new Standing Order:

Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. (1) Every instrument which is laid before each House of Parliament and upon which proceedings may be or might have been taken in either House of Parliament, in pursuance of an Act of Parliament; beingthe motion was agreed to; it was ordered that the amendments be printed. (HL Paper 53)

12.Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that for the purposes of Standing Order (Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments) the following powers be granted to the Committee:

The quorum of the Committee shall be two;

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The Committee shall have power to agree with any committee appointed by the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;

The Committee shall have power to appoint one or more sub-committees to join with any sub-committee or sub-committees appointed by the Commons; and the power to refer to such sub-committee or sub-committees any of the matters referred to the Committee;

The Committee shall, before reporting that the special attention of the House be drawn to any instrument, afford to any government department concerned therewith an opportunity of furnishing orally or in writing to them, or any sub-committee of the Committee, such explanations as the department think fit;

The Committee shall have leave to report from time to time;

the motion was agreed to; and it was ordered accordingly.

13.Supreme Court (Offices) Bill—The bill was read a third time and passed.
14.Consolidated Fund Bill—It was moved by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey that the bill be now read a second time; the motion was agreed to and the Committee was negatived; then, Standing Order 44 having been dispensed with, the bill was read a third time and passed.
15.Scottish Agricultural College Order Confirmation Bill—The bill was read a third time and passed.
16.Education (Student Loans) Bill—The House resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; an amendment was moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed and the bill was reported without amendment.
17.Crime and Disorder Bill [HL]—It was moved by the Lord Williams of Mostyn that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
18.Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 Compensation Scheme—It was moved by the Lord Williams of Mostyn that the draft Scheme laid before the House on 27th November be approved; the motion was agreed to.
19.Independent Television Commission Codes—The Viscount Astor asked Her Majesty’s Government what changes are necessary to the Independent Television Commission Codes to allow publishers and television companies to produce programmes for terrestrial television based on magazine titles, in the same way as currently allowed on the BBC, satellite and cable; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale.

The House was adjourned at twenty-three minutes past ten o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.