House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)

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Thursday 20 November 1997

The House met at three o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Abercorn, D.
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alport, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Balfour, E.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Beaverbrook, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Bethell, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blake, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brentford, V.
Bridges, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookes, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carter, L.
Carver, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Chichester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clwyd, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Constantine of Stanmore, L.
Cooke of Thorndon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Craigmyle, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.

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Cross, V.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Freyne, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Digby, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Dunrossil, V.
Eatwell, L.
Effingham, E.
Elibank, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Erne, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Exmouth, V.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Flowers, L.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gainford, L.
Gallacher, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson, L.
Gillmore of Thamesfield, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenamara, L.
Gormanston, V.
Goschen, V.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Haddington, E.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hankey, L.
Hanworth, V.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Higgins, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howe, E.
Howell, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Tanworth, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Islwyn, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeffreys, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kenilworth, L.
Keyes, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Kilpatrick of Kincraig, L.
Kimball, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kitchener, E.
Knollys, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layton, L.
Leathers, V.
Leigh, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lestor of Eccles, B.
Levy, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Long, V.
Longford, E.
Lowry, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
MacLehose of Beoch, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Meston, L.
Methuen, L.
Milverton, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monkswell, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Nicol, B.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Peston, L.
Pike, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

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Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reading, M.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Sainsbury, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Southwell, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sudeley, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurlow, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tweeddale, M.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Waterford, M.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Whaddon, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Young, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell.

Judicial Business

1.Hutchison Reid (Respondent) v. Secretary of State for Scotland (Appellant) and another (Scotland)—The appeal of the Secretary of State for Scotland was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 1st January next.
2.Clarke (A.P.) (Respondent) v. Kato, Smith and General Accident Fire & Life Assurance Corporation plc (Appellants)—

Cutter (Respondent) v. Eagle Star Insurance Company (Appellants)—

(Conjoined appeals)—

The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statements and appendix and setting down the causes for hearing might be extended to 31st December next or to the third sitting day after the next ensuing meeting of the House (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

3.Wilson and others (Appellants) v. St. Helens Borough Council (Respondents) and one other appeal—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 11th December next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.
4.Newlon Housing Trust (Appellants) v. Alsulaimen (A.P.) (Respondent) and another—The first respondent’s legal aid certificate was lodged.
5.Secretary of State for the Home Department (Appellant) v. Adan (A.P.) (Respondent)—The respondent’s legal aid certificate was lodged.


6.Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:

Broadcasting—Government Response to the 4th Report of the House of Commons National Heritage Committee, Session 1996–97, on the BBC and the Future of Broadcasting.


7.Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) (National Health Service Trusts) Order 1997;

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2.Draft Channel 4 (Application of Excess Revenues) Order 1997;
3.Draft Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) Regulations 1997.
8.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Sole, Plaice, etc. (Specified Sea Areas) (Prohibition of Fishing) Order 1997, laid under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967;
2.Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export Control) (Amendment No. 4) Regulations 1997, laid under the European Communities Act 1972;
3.Civil Courts (Amendment No. 4) Order 1997, laid under the County Courts Act 1984.
9.Paper not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following paper was laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:

Statement by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the appointment of a member of the British Tourist Authority, laid under the Development of Tourism Act 1969.

Select Committee Report

10.Liaison—The First Report from the Select Committee was made (see appendix); it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 39)

Public Business

11.Financial Services Act 1986 (Extension of Scope of Act) Order 1997—It was moved by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey that the Order laid before the House on 27th October be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
12.Shops (Sunday Trading &c.) (Northern Ireland) Order 1997—It was moved by the Lord Dubs that the draft Order laid before the House on 28th October be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
13.Waste and Contaminated Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1997—
14.Industrial Pollution Control (Northern Ireland) Order 1997—
It was moved by the Lord Dubs that the draft Orders laid before the House on 28th October be approved en bloc; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
15.Employment Rights (Dispute Resolution) Bill [HL]—The report was received; amendments were agreed to; an amendment was moved and (by leave of the House) withdrawn; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 45)
16.Palliative treatment of terminally ill patients—The Lord Lester of Herne Hill asked Her Majesty’s Government whether they are satisfied with the current state of the criminal law and medical practice in relation to the palliative treatment by doctors and nurses of terminally ill patients; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Williams of Mostyn.

The House was adjourned at fourteen minutes past nine o’clock
to Monday next, a quarter-past two o’clock.



First Report
Session 1997–98

Thursday, 20 November 1997

By the Select Committee appointed to advise the House on the resources required for select committee work and to allocate resources between select committees; to review the select committee work of the House; to consider requests for ad hoc committees and report to the House with recommendations; to ensure effective co-ordination between the two Houses; and to consider the availability of Lords to serve on committees:

Ordered to Report

Future Committee activity

1. The Committee’s First Report, Session 1996–97, recommended the re-appointment of the Committee on the Public Service in the new Parliament, on the understanding that it should complete its work by Christmas 1997. We have therefore considered whether another ad hoc Committee should

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be appointed after that Committee has reported to the House, but we have decided to defer a decision until the new year. This will enable us to take account of any proposals which may have emerged by then.

The European Union budget

2. We have considered the suggestion, made during Starred Questions on 4 November (Official Report, cols. 1317–18) that an additional Select Committee might be appointed to examine the European Union budget and perhaps other aspects of European Union expenditure.

3. We understand that the difficulties encountered by the European Communities Committee in scrutinising the annual budget proposals arise from the tight timetable, allowing little time for scrutiny, and that this problem is being actively pursued by the Committee, in particular in correspondence with Treasury ministers. We consider that it would serve no useful purpose to appoint a separate Committee. Nor would it be right to set up an additional Sub-Committee of the European Communities Committee, when only a year ago the number of Sub-Committees was increased from five to six for an experimental period of two years.