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Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who took part in the debate. First, perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, that had my amendment been out of order, I doubt whether the Clerks would have accepted it. Secondly, although we discussed euthanasia last time, the linkage is important. A little consistency is needed from the Government. Thirdly--this addresses the Minister's remark that there were no new arguments--the arguments advanced by the Government on 5th October on the Northern Ireland Bill seem to introduce a totally new dimension. I do not believe that the noble Baronesses Lady Gould and Lady Lockwood took part in that debate and said to their noble friend Lord Dubs that they disagreed with his assertion that the abortion law should follow the criminal law, which is the Government's clearly stated position, on the record. All I ask for is consistency. That position should apply to Scotland, as well.

Lord Desai: My Lords, the noble Lord knows the constitutional situation in Northern Ireland.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, devolution throughout all parts of the United Kingdom is on exactly the same principle. The Government have decided not to devolve the criminal law to Northern Ireland currently but have made it clear that, when they do devolve it, the abortion law will go with it. The arguments with regard to Northern Ireland should be the same for Scotland and vice versa.

My noble friend Lord Renton made the point that Scots law has a long tradition of being different from English law. The Scottish parliament is being set up to legislate on a wide variety of matters. Although the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, said that she believed in devolution, it did not sound like it. This very large Bill, which we have now been discussing in Committee and on Report for 14 days, contains a vast number of important issues which we Scots shall decide for ourselves in Edinburgh. I believe that abortion should be one of them.

3 Nov 1998 : Column 213

If noble Lords will not support me on the first amendment, I look forward to their supporting me on the second amendment. The noble Viscount said that euthanasia is not a matter on which there are currently laws. In fact, it is illegal and so serious laws apply to it. I think the noble Viscount meant that there were not laws which allowed for euthanasia in certain circumstances. While that may be the case, there is a great deal of discussion on the subject. In the countries of some of our European friends laws already exist which allow for euthanasia in very limited circumstances. There are vigorous lobbies both for and against in this country--by which I mean both England and Scotland. It is very possible that in the next few years legislatures will have to address these issues. If the House does not think that abortion can be trusted to the Scottish parliament, I suggest that nor can euthanasia. I therefore invite the opinion of the House on the first amendment and, dependent on the result, I shall invite the opinion of the House on the second amendment.

7.42 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 219) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 70; Not-Contents, 127.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Aldington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller.]
Buscombe, B.
Chesham, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigmyle, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Fookes, B.
Forbes, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Henley, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Hylton, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Renton, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Sempill, L.
Sharples, B.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wynford, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Balfour, E.
Barnett, L.
Berners, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Burlison, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Flather, B.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Kintore, E.
Levy, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northfield, L.
Orme, L.
Parry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Rowallan, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sewel, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Stair, E.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurso, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Nov 1998 : Column 214

3 Nov 1998 : Column 215

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 220:


Page 84, line 33, at end insert--

("Section 6 -- Euthanasia etc.

Reservation
Euthanasia.
The approval, refusal of approval, or withholding of medical treatment and health care.
The granting or withholding of consent to medical treatment and healthcare on behalf of patients who are incapable of making their own decisions.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, for the sake of consistency and to allow noble Lords to be consistent, I shall seek the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

7.50 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 220) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 70; Not-Contents, 131.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS

Aldington, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Burnham, L. [Teller.]
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chesham, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Fookes, B.
Forbes, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Henley, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Iveagh, E.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Renton, L.
Rowallan, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Sempill, L.
Sharples, B.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wynford, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Bach, L.
Balfour, E.
Barnett, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Craigavon, V.
Craigmyle, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Flather, B.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Kennet, L.
Levy, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northfield, L.
Orme, L.
Parry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sewel, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Stair, E.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurso, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3 Nov 1998 : Column 216

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving this Motion, perhaps I may suggest that the Report stage begins again not before 9.1 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

3 Nov 1998 : Column 217


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