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Division No. 2


Aberdare, L.
Ailsa, M.
Anelay of St. Johns, B. [Teller.]
Attlee, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Bethell, L.
Biddulph, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller.]
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chesham, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dartmouth, E.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Glentoran, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Home, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Jopling, L.
Kenyon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kintore, E.
Lawrence, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mancroft, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Milverton, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Munster, E.
Naseby, L.
Norfolk, D.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
Savile, L.
Sharples, B.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swansea, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wise, L.


Acton, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Barnett, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Chandos, V.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenamara, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mallalieu, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Runcie, L.
St. Davids, V.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

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6.28 p.m.

Lord Hooson moved Amendment No. 23:

Page 8, line 46, at end insert--
("( ) A person who is a member of--
(a) the House of Commons,
(b) the European Parliament, or
(c) any unitary authority in Wales,
is disqualified from being an Assembly member, unless he is an Assembly member returned at the first ordinary election for the Assembly during his term of office as a member of a body mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c), in which case such disqualification shall not apply until the next subsequent ordinary election.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, as the Minister said in discussing the previous amendment, I wish to uncouple this amendment because it deals with the broader issue. I wish to challenge the idea that one can have a dual mandate; one to an elected assembly for Wales and, say, to the House of Commons, the European Parliament or even the unitary authority for Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, rightly observed that we are experiencing an innovative period in the history of our country with devolution in many areas, and it is time that we had a proper debate on the desirability of a dual mandate.

I believe that during the first four-year session of the Welsh assembly it will be highly desirable to have members who are or have been Members of the House of Commons or the European Parliament or who are in local government, because they will bring great experience to bear on the affairs of the assembly. The advantage of having members from the House of Commons or from the European Parliament is that they will have dealt with affairs at a higher level than people in local government. Furthermore, people in local government are often closer to the electorate and know what affects their everyday lives. As the assembly will be concerned with the overall distribution of the budget for Wales, it is important that during its early stages there is a fusion of different experiences and skills.

I wish to take your Lordships for a moment to the period thereafter. Surely the assembly will have set its own standards and by that time will have succeeded--we all hope that it will--in establishing its own style, loyalties, and so on, and its own level of debate. Thereafter, it is highly undesirable that a person should take upon himself to be an elected member of the assembly, chairman of a local authority and a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons at one and the same time. That is highly undesirable.

I have always been basically a federalist. The great advantage of a federal constitution eventually is that it has a clear division of powers. I understand that in the United States, for example, one cannot be a member of the state assembly and a member of Congress. In the German federal system, one can be elected by the Lander to the upper house but one cannot be a member of the lower house and a member of the Lander.

In this country, we should face the real issue of the future under a devolved system of government: we shall have an assembly in Northern Ireland, a parliament in

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Scotland and some kind of assembly in London. We must face up to the question of whether it is right that people should take upon themselves, as it were, the carrying of a number of mandates.

I believe--and it is the view I wish to put to your Lordships--that it is highly undesirable. Eventually, there is the question of duality; and students of Edmund Burke will be aware of his views on the dangers of duality. I know that the Secretary of State for Wales takes that view at the moment as he invited informal discussions on the Bill which were extremely helpful. We have had across-the-table discussions with him informally, and I am disclosing no secrets. I raised this matter on the address on the Queen's Speech and on the Referendums Bill. He was good enough to tell me that he appreciated entirely the point that I was making but thought that it should be dealt with at party level; that is, that it should be a question for the internal discipline of the party. It might be highly undesirable to have a person who was both a Member of the House of Commons and a member of the assembly, with different loyalties and different priorities. Where will he be on a given day? Will he be in Westminster or Cardiff? That may be a problem in view of what we were told earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, about the train services between the two.

I was amazed by the views put forward by my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas. He adopted the description of him by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, as being an autumnal radical. As I listened to him, I thought, "Dear Dafydd, as he gets older he becomes more autumnal than radical". My noble friend put forward the proposition for the acceptance of any number of responsibilities, and an acceptance of the principle of duality or even more.

I reject that. For the first four years of the Welsh assembly, Scottish parliament and the Northern Ireland assembly, there is a good deal to be said for the expertise being spread around. But thereafter, we must face up to this problem, especially if we are to have more and more devolution. How unfortunate it was to have Members of the House of Commons being also members of the European Parliament. They were not doing justice to either establishment. That is likely to be the result in the future.

It is not a matter of claiming expenses, two salaries, or anything like that. The Secretary of State is well aware of the matter--if I am not mistaken, the Bill deals with it or it will be dealt with--that people cannot draw two salaries, two sets of expenses, and so on. I am not concerned with that aspect of the matter, although given the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, and myself in previous years with various matters concerning local government in Wales, it is just as well to bear that aspect in mind too.

However, I believe that it is necessary for this House and the public generally to consider whether in future they want to have people who are members of the assembly but who remain Members of the House of Commons; whether they want people who will give their first priority to the assembly--and I am dealing now specifically with Wales but the issue has a much broader

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input--who are loyal to the it, and who will make it their first obligation, their real interest; or whether we shall allow that duality to take place.

I move this amendment in the hope that it will provoke a real debate on the issue as a preliminary to a broader debate on the future development of the devolutionary process in our country. I beg to move.

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