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Earl Baldwin of Bewdley: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Let me cut straight through to what the noble Baroness has generously said in the past few minutes. She went a very long way towards what we are after. However, I am still not as clear as I would like to be. I tend to go with the noble Lord, Lord Tope, who said that unless we are 100 per cent. clear we should press the amendment. I am still inclined to think that.

The reducing point that I have in mind is that the general teaching council should, obviously, have the powers which are now on the face of the Bill and that it would have a real, constructive and positive role in matters, for example, like gross incompetence. I refer to the teaching-related issues that I mentioned, such as the teacher who loses all the scripts that her children have done for the GCSE; who fails to mark work; or whose pupils, going in for an exam, find 10 minutes beforehand, that they do not have the papers that they are allowed to take in with them; and this is all part of a pattern from previous schools and so on. That is the kind of issue that we had in mind that the general teaching council should take on; issues which would not have got to the Secretary of State.

The noble Baroness also said that teaching competence would not come into it. Can she give a little more clarification before I decide, if not exactly where the dividing line is between the two, but that a substantial amount of what we have been talking about will be assigned to the general teaching council? Can she do that?

Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, this is exactly the kind of issue which needs more consideration. As I said earlier, we are anxious to work in partnership

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with the education service. We have recently drawn up new arrangements, which have been agreed by local education authorities, their representatives and the teaching unions, for dealing with matters of competence as to how an individual teacher does his or her job. We need to give those new arrangements time to work. Therefore, I do not believe that, for the time being, it would be sensible for the GTC to be barring a teacher on those kinds of grounds.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for the GTC to bar teachers for some of the other reasons that I gave earlier; namely, where a teacher has been dishonest or pretended to have qualifications which he or she does not have; or where a teacher has been involved in misconduct in the school, but not misconduct that involves child protection cases. I hope that that is helpful. All I can do is reiterate that we accept in principle what the noble Earl wants to do here, but we would like more time to come up with legally watertight amendments that do not get us into difficulty when implementing the proposals in the Bill.

Earl Baldwin of Bewdley: My Lords, I am extremely grateful for that reply. It is certainly a difficult one and the noble Baroness has gone a long way. I think what I have to say is that she has not probably gone quite far enough. It is a close thing, but I would say possibly four-fifths and no more. I am swayed by the thought that if it is as she says and if I have misrepresented her, with another stage to come in another place it is perfectly open to her and her party to tidy it up at that stage. With some regret, but on balance and conscious of the support I have had from many noble Lords around the House, to whom I am extremely grateful, I think I will test the opinion of the House.

5.40 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents,69; Not-Contents, 104.

Division No. 2


Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E. [Teller.]
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Butterfield, L.
Byford, B.
Calverley, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Flowers, L.
Geraint, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harlech, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchyra, L.
Jacobs, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Leigh, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lyell, L.
Lytton, E.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Meston, L.
Methuen, L.
Monson, L.
Mountevans, L.
Nelson, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Redesdale, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Southwell, Bp.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L. [Teller.]
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wharton, B.
Wilberforce, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Barnett, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilbracken, L.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mallalieu, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

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10 Mar 1998 : Column 151

5.50 p.m.

Clause 4 [Regulations relating to registration]:

[Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 17:

Page 4, line 8, leave out ("by the Secretary of State").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Young I beg to move formally Amendment No. 17.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 5 [Additional and ancillary functions]:

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 18:

Page 4, line 30, leave out subsection (3).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 [The General Teaching Council for Wales]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendments Nos. 19 to 21:

Page 5, line 5, leave out ("General Teaching").
Page 5, line 7, leave out ("General Teaching").
Page 5, line 12, leave out ("General Teaching").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move en bloc Amendments Nos. 19 to 21.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 7 [Functions of General Teaching Council for Wales: general]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 22:

Page 5, line 23, leave out ("General Teaching").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 9 [Registration requirement for teachers at schools]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 23:

Page 6, line 12, after ("Council") insert ("for England").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 10 [Deduction of fees from salaries, etc.]:

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