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6.48 p.m.

Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I was overwhelmed by the number of speakers and the great support that the Motion received. I hope that noble Lords will allow me to give a compendious or portmanteau thank you to everyone who took part and to the many noble Lords who listened to the arguments without taking part.

I believe that it was an informed, rational debate. The Government's rationale for the regulations was, I believe, comprehensively demolished. In spite of the best efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, I do not think that he managed to put them together again. I am, however, grateful to him for all the effort he put into giving answers to a large number of points and questions raised during the debate. When he left the Chamber for a few minutes I thought that he might be undergoing some sort of Pauline conversion on the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie; namely, that he might have reconsidered the position. I was disappointed to hear the noble Lord say that the regulations would remain in force regardless. In view of the overwhelming support the Motion has received, I now wish to test the opinion of the House.

27 Jan 1998 : Column 157

6.50 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 207; Not-Contents, 97.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Abinger, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Aldington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alport, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaverbrook, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Belstead, L.
Berners, B.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Calverley, L.
Carew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Colwyn, L.
Congleton, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Dundonald, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Exmouth, V.
Falkland, V.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Freyberg, L.
Gage, V.
Gainford, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gormanston, V.
Greenway, L.
Grey, E.
Haddington, E.
Haig, E.
Halsbury, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harlech, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrowby, E.
Hayhoe, L.
Hemphill, L.
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchyra, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jeffreys, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L. [Teller.]
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kitchener, E.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Knutsford, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lowry, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Ludford, B.
Lyell, L.
Macclesfield, E.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moran, L.
Mottistone, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Radnor, E.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shuttleworth, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strafford, E.
Strange, B.
Strathalmond, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Westbury, L.
Wharton, B.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L. [Teller.]
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Wynford, L.


Acton, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Barnett, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenamara, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilbracken, L.
Levy, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Parry, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

27 Jan 1998 : Column 159

7.1 p.m.

Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, before we proceed to the next Business, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House whether he remembers the last occasion when a government were defeated on what I think is technically a non-fatal Motion. Since the noble Lord's memory is, I know, extremely good, perhaps I may refer him to col. 575 of the Official Report dated 8th March 1996, when the then government suffered a defeat on a non-fatal Motion.

The noble Lord, with his usual courtesy, made a request that,

    "in view of the vote that has just taken place and the firm expression of the view of this House, will the Government now consider whether this matter should be referred to a Select Committee either of this House or of Parliament?"--[Official Report, 8/3/96; col. 575.]

I am not wedded to that device, but since the noble Lord is clearly a fair man, and since he feels strongly that the expressions of opinion of this House, fatal or otherwise, should be taken careful note of, I wonder whether he will allow me to ask him how the Government intend to react to this vote.

Lord Richard: My Lords, it was said of Abraham Lincoln that, as an advocate in the courts of Illinois, he once appeared in the morning and argued one point; when he appeared in the afternoon he tried to advance the precise opposite of what he had argued in the morning. The judge said to him: "But Mr. Lincoln, you said this this morning, you are now trying to argue this this afternoon". He replied: "Well, Judge, I was convinced by the arguments against me this morning".

Since we are into the realm of precedent, I am sure the noble Viscount will remember that on 6th July 1992 a Motion was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson of Brompton, in relation to the Income Support (General Regulations) 1987. There was a Motion on Hong Kong on 15th July 1993. There was one on the sheep annual premium and suckler cow premium quota regulations in 1993. We will be behaving precisely as the previous government did.

27 Jan 1998 : Column 160

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