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Lord Hooson: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, knows perfectly well, as I do, that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, has a very considerable intelligence and intellect. However, he is not so Machiavellian, I believe, to have the motivation that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, implies. It seems to me that to suggest that it would be an advantage in the presentation of the case for a "yes" vote to change the name is neither here nor there.

It is far better that we reconsider whether the institution will be best described as the "Welsh Assembly" or as the "National Assembly for Wales". The Government should reconsider this because it seems to me that, for the reasons advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, the body would be better described as the "National Assembly for Wales". That would be better than the description "Welsh Assembly" because in Wales the description "Welsh" often implies that a person is Welsh-speaking. As there may be other implications, I think that it would be far better to use the much more neutral term "National Assembly for Wales".

Over 30 years ago I introduced into another place a Bill to give a domestic parliament to Wales. I was reminded of that when the Library found a copy of that Bill, which had been drafted by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. As the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, knows, my noble friend is a much better draftsman than I am which is why I entrusted him with the drafting. I noticed that it was called the "Government of Wales Bill", but I believe that the wording suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is rather better--and it is better than the Government's first proposal. All that I am suggesting to the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, is that the Government should reconsider the matter and possibly return to it later. As I have said, it would be a considerable advantage to have the proposed wording.

Lord Parry: My Lords, I have no difficulty whatever in supporting all of the arguments that have been put forward so cohesively and persuasively by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. The only problem is that the amendment has taken not only me but the whole House by surprise. The timing is crucial as so many papers have been prepared based on the old assumptions which the noble Lord is now asking to be corrected.

I was chairman of the Wales Tourist Board--not the "Welsh Tourist Board", for precisely the reasons that the noble Lord has outlined. Like other noble Lords,

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I think that "National Assembly for Wales" is a better title. I support that view totally and hope that the Government can go some way towards giving us an assurance that they will consider making such a change despite the fact that they might be defeated by the time schedule.

Lord Stanley of Alderley: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Hooson and Lord Elis-Thomas, about a change of title. I do not know whether it is possible to make the change at this stage, but I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, recognise that, very sadly, over the past 20 or 30 years a rather racist and ethnic approach has crept into Wales. As has been said, the new proposed name for the assembly should create the right impression. Surely that is most important. I warmly welcome what the noble Lord said.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sewel): My Lords, I have listened most carefully to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and others who have spoken in this short debate. The argument for the amendment has been well made and I believe that it has some power. It is perhaps unfortunate that we are faced with this amendment at this stage of the Bill's journey because it is now relatively late in the day.

As the noble Lord knows, the Government have already published their White Paper on their proposals. The sub-title of that document is, "The Government's Proposals for a Welsh Assembly", and we are preparing a leaflet for households using the same terminology. I think that it would be misleading for the public if, having flocked to the shops to buy copies of the White Paper and having become familiar with the Government's proposals for what is described as the "Welsh Assembly", the ballot paper instead asked them for their views on the "National Assembly for Wales". That would introduce a degree of confusion. We have worked hard, and shall continue to work hard, to avoid confusion and to ensure that the electorate is well informed.

I am afraid that these amendments, however well intentioned, would undermine our efforts and would possibly jeopardise the ballot. However, perhaps I may suggest that these arguments might properly be deployed during consideration of the legislation setting up the assembly--subject, of course, to the people's endorsement of our proposals. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Elis-Thomas: My Lords, now that I have moved back to the Cross-Benches, I am continually surprised by the way in which this House listens to arguments, having spent 18 years next door in another place. I welcome particularly the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, and his endorsement for the notion that, if established, the assembly would be a national institution alongside all our other national institutions. I am grateful for the support of my noble friend Lord Hooson who has long campaigned for Wales

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(in all senses of the word) and for Welsh institutions. I am grateful also for the support of my noble friend Lord Parry.

My only suggestion for my noble friend Lord Sewel, for whom I obviously have the utmost respect because there cannot be any more difficult role than that of sociologist turned politician, is that perhaps the strapline, "An Assembly for Wales", might feature regularly in the campaigning in Wales as a mode of information rather than disinformation. It would help to ensure that the inclusiveness, on which all noble Lords have commented, is reflected in the campaigning. I emphasise particularly the importance of ensuring that the Government's campaign is seen as an inclusive campaign for the creation of another national institution. It should not be seen as a Labour Party campaign--I am certain that it will not be seen in that way--but nor should it be seen as an anti-Conservative campaign. I am a little concerned that some Labour campaigning for the assembly might appear to be a campaign to exclude Conservatives from Welsh politics. That should never be the case because, as we have seen today, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, is almost as much of a lower case Welsh nationalist as I am. On those grounds, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 [Expenditure]:

[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]

Schedule 1 [Section 1(2)]:

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 3:


Page 4, line 19, after ("HAVE") insert ("INCOME").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 3, I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 4. These are procedural amendments which I should have moved on Report after your Lordships had made a decision on an earlier amendment, but I am afraid that, as I am still in the nursery school of opposition, I withdrew them instead of moving them, so I beg to move them now.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 4:


Page 4, line 22, after ("HAVE") insert ("INCOME").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Section 2(2)]:

[Amendments Nos. 5 to 10 not moved.]

Schedule 3 [Section 3]:

Lord Sewel moved Amendment No. 11:


Page 6, line 41, at end insert--
("(3) It is the returning officer's general duty at a referendum to do all such acts and things as may be necessary for effectually conducting the referendum in the manner provided by this Schedule.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, following the contribution just made by the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, perhaps I should say that Amendments Nos. 11 to 42 are minor technical amendments to

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improve Schedule 3 which was added on Report. They are simply good housekeeping amendments. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, we now come to Amendments Nos. 12 to 42 and I should mention to your Lordships that, if Amendment No. 42 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 43 and 44.

Lord Sewel moved Amendments Nos. 12 to 42 en bloc:


Page 9, leave out lines 26 to 28.
Page 9, leave out lines 45 and 46.
Page 10, line 3, column 2, after ("votes") insert ("on his own behalf").
Page 10, line 6, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 10, line 7, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 10, line 9, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 10, line 13, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 10, line 37, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 10, line 38, column 2, leave out ("voting") and insert ("electoral").
Page 11, leave out lines 3 to 6.
Page 11, line 25, column 2, leave out ("and") and insert ("or").
Page 11, line 49, column 2, at end insert--
("The lists maintained in accordance with paragraph 3 of Schedule 5 to the 1983 Act shall have effect for the purposes of a referendum; and any person shall, before a referendum, be entitled at all reasonable hours to inspect those lists or a copy of them.")

Page 13, line 8, column 2, at end insert--
(", and
(b) for subsection (5)(a) and (b), and the words in subsection (5) after paragraph (b), substitute "for or within any voting area where, or in relation to which, the illegal practice occurred.
(5A) In subsection (5) "voting area" means a local government area in Scotland or a county or county borough in Wales.".")

Page 13, line 9, column 1, at end insert ("(application for relief)").
Page 13, line 12, column 1, at end insert ("(incapacities on conviction of corrupt or illegal practice)").
Page 13, line 13, column 1, at end insert ("(mitigation of incapacities, illegal payments, &c., and prosecutions)").

29 Jul 1997 : Column 103


Page 13, line 13, at end insert--
("Section 177 (summary trial)For "in the county in which the local government area for which the election was held is situated or which it adjoins" substitute "in the county or county borough where, or in relation to which, the offence is alleged to have been committed".")

Page 13, leave out lines 42 to 45.
Page 14, leave out lines 9 and 10.
Page 14, line 23, column 2, at beginning insert ("In paragraph (1),").
Page 15, line 3, column 2, at beginning insert--
("The reference in paragraph (a) to section 66 of the 1983 Act shall be construed as a reference to that section as modified in Table 1.")

Page 16, line 15, column 2, after ("referendum") insert ("in this electoral area").
Page 16, line 35, column 2, after ("fwrdeistref") insert ("sirol").
Page 16, column 2, leave out lines 46 to 50 and insert--
("for "yr etholiad hwn ac yn yr etholaeth hon" substitute "y refferendwm hwn yn y rhanbarth etholiadol hwn".")

Page 19, line 3, column 2, at beginning insert--
("In subsection (5) for "constituency or, as the case may be, electoral area" substitute "local government area in Scotland or county or county borough in Wales".")

Page 19, line 8, column 2, leave out ("the") and insert ("a").
Page 20, line 28, column 2, at end insert--
("For subsection (5) substitute--
"(5) A person is not entitled to vote as proxy in any electoral area in a referendum on behalf of more than two electors of whom that person is not the husband, wife, parent, grandparent, brother, sister, child or grandchild.".")

Page 24, line 23, column 2, at end insert--
("and
(b) for "Constituency" substitute "Local government area".")

Page 24, leave out lines 27 and 28.
Page 28, line 30, column 2, leave out from ("D") to end of line 59 on page 29 and insert ("shall be construed as a reference to the form of proxy paper in the Appendix to this Schedule.").
Page 30, column 2, leave out lines 27 to 49 and insert--
(""2. Read the ballot paper carefully. On the ballot paper mark a cross (X) in the box to the right of the proposition you are voting for. Put no other mark on the ballot paper or your vote may not be counted. If you cannot vote without assistance, the person assisting you must not disclose how you have voted.",")

29 Jul 1997 : Column 104

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 43 and 44 not moved.]


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