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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, are we saying that support for the institution of marriage is enforceable in law? Many lawyers will make a good living for many years to come as a result of different interpretations of what is meant by general support for the institution of marriage.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, that is exactly the point that I made about intrusive techniques.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I did not hear what the noble Baroness said.

Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, my concern was that if the phrase about intrusive techniques in the noble Lord's amendment were to stand, it would be exploited by lawyers in exactly the way that the noble Lord suggested. That is my point; not that I think the service would be vulnerable but that there would be considerable efforts to exploit the matter in the courts.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that is an interesting point. The Minister subsequently explained that principles (b), (c) and (d) are already contained--

27 Jun 1996 : Column 1032

either in exactly those words, or in similar words--in instructions to the Security Service. I am not quite sure of her words, but I believe she referred to some document which describes how the Security Service should operate. The noble Baroness is opposing the idea that it should appear in primary legislation. I remind her that this Bill contains--in primary legislation--detailed prescription for the supervision of the work of the Security Service in support of police forces and detailed prescription for the way in which warrants will operate. Is it not entirely appropriate that we should at the same time bring out into the open and into legislation the basis on which these changes are to be made? I believe that what we are saying in this amendment is entirely consistent with the objectives of the Prime Minister in his admirable defence of a statutory basis for law enforcement agencies. I am not convinced by what the Minister has said. I am certainly not convinced by the arguments made by those on her Benches. I wish to seek the opinion of the House on this amendment.

4.36 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 73; Not-Contents, 122.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Desai, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Fitt, L.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Grey, E.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L. [Teller.]
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hylton, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Listowel, E.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Seear, B.
Shepherd, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurso, V.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warnock, B.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.


Aberdare, L.
Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brentford, V.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Caldecote, V.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
De Freyne, L.
De L'Isle, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Donegall, M.
Downshire, M.
Ellenborough, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Gainsborough, E.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harrowby, E.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Ilchester, E.
Inglewood, L.
Kenyon, L.
Knights, L.
Knollys, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Marlesford, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newall, L.
Norrie, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Pike, B.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Romney, E.
Saint Albans, D.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B. [Teller.]
Ullswater, V.
Westbury, L.
Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

27 Jun 1996 : Column 1033

4.45 p.m.

Clause 1 [Functions of Security Service]:

Lord Avebury: My Lords, perhaps before we take Amendment No. 2 I could raise a matter which arises out of the statement made by the Leader of the House in answer to questions.

27 Jun 1996 : Column 1034

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, this is wholly improper in the middle of the Security Service Bill.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness will bear with me for a second. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House made a statement that documents concerning the Asylum and Immigration Bill had been placed in the Library of your Lordships' House at half-past eleven this morning. I am afraid that inadvertently he misled your Lordships. After that, I went immediately to the Library to ask for the documents so that I could begin considering the amendments. Complaints had already been made, as the noble Baroness may have noticed, about the shortness of time available within which those who are involved with the Bill had to consider matters. The time available is even shorter than anyone thought because the documents were not there.

Baroness Blatch: Order! My Lords, I suggest that the noble Lord goes to see the Leader of the House and the usual channels and does not use this Bill for this purpose.

Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, with regard to the usual channels, the fact is that inadvertently the Leader of the House has misled the House by saying that documents were in the Library when they were not. The House has the right to hear a statement from Ministers as to exactly what is going on, given that the House has been misled--inadvertently, I repeat.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it would be at least courteous for noble Lords to see the Leader of the House to press their point. They can leave him to decide how he will deal with the point, rather than using this Bill as an opportunity to raise a point of order. As the noble Lord knows, I am in no position to answer it because it is not my subject. At this stage, it is a matter for the Leader of the House.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 1, line 23, at end insert--
("(4) After sub-paragraph 7(3) of Schedule 1 to the Security Service Act 1989, there shall be added--
"(3A) The Tribunal shall submit to the Intelligence and Security Committee established under section 10 of the Intelligence Services Act 1994 details of every determination made by it in relation to any function carried out by the Service under section 1(4) of this Act, its reasons for that determination and the relevant background papers.".").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment relates to the system of control of the Security Service which is set up under the Intelligence Services Act 1994. I begin by expressing my gratitude to the Minister for sending me details, some of which I had not had, of the tribunal system and the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee.

In the amendment, we propose not that there should be a general reporting of all cases undertaken by the Security Service in performing the functions provided for in the Act, but that the tribunal which deals with only a small proportion of the cases which the Security

27 Jun 1996 : Column 1035

Service undertakes, should have the responsibility of submitting details of determinations made to the Intelligence and Security Committee. I do not know how many determinations are made by the tribunal in the course of a year, but the proposal will not be an enormous burden.

On the other hand, it is important that the Intelligence and Security Committee should have the raw material on which it is to base its judgments which must form the basis of its annual report to the Prime Minister. If it is to consider the working of the two services, it must know what complaints have been made and how they have been dealt with by the tribunal. I acknowledge that most complaints made to the current Security Service Tribunal appear to be unjustified. The annual reports of the Security Service Commissioner confirm that. So much the better and so much the more reason why the Intelligence and Security Committee should have the basis on which it can say with confidence to the Prime Minister and ultimately to Parliament that the vast majority of complaints are unjustified.

However, even if they are not justified and are not upheld by the tribunal, they may not all be misconceived. Some complaints, even if they are not upheld individually, could illustrate more general problems in the functions and working of the services. The committee ought to have the information in order to fulfil its own functions adequately. I say that with some trepidation in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, but I believe that the amendment is--as it is intended to be--helpful to the work of his committee and helpful to the working of the 1994 Act. It deserves the serious consideration of the House. I beg to move.

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