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Baroness Gardner of Parkes: If the noble Baroness will allow me to intervene, that is not so. My statement was that the accommodation people are occupying as temporary accommodation can be offered as secure accommodation. It would be the same accommodation up to the end of the two years.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Yes, but not to that family unless it has reached the top of the queue. The Bill forbids it. We all accept that there is no problem at all--

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I am sorry to come back again. When the noble Baroness says that they have reached the top of the queue, it is the queue of people willing to take that accommodation. She said earlier that the accommodation would be such that other people would not want to take it. Therefore, I should have thought that the family in it would be the people at the top of the queue willing to take such accommodation.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, I wish that that were right.

25 Jun 1996 : Column 786

However, the Bill does not permit local authorities to do that. Unless the family is at the top of the queue, the local authority may not house it above someone else. I fear that that would be the fast track into a council house which people have earlier deplored.

Although I support the noble Baroness's position, the amendment is much less radical. It proposes that while families wait in temporary accommodation, as the Bill requires, before being offered permanent accommodation because they have reached the top of the list, taking into account all the other families on the list, they may continue to wait, if the local authority thinks it sensible, in the hard-to-let temporary stock. That is all. Families wait in the hard-to-let temporary property until they reach the top of the list of those waiting for the more desirable, attractive, permanent housing which they would prefer, rather than being evicted. It makes sense.

The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, has huge experience of local government, as have other speakers. They know that in such circumstances sensible local authorities want the discretion to be able to manage the situation on the ground because areas vary. Without that discretion it will be too much of a lottery.

The amendment is modest. It allows some of the most vulnerable families who have not yet qualified for permanent housing to remain in the temporary housing owned by the local authority. Such families do not interfere with anyone else's chances. They take their turn in the queue on the register, no more no less; no jumping of queues, nothing. They merely stay where they are. I had hoped that we would receive a response from the Minister but he has given nothing. He has not met us at all on the matter. Therefore, I wish to seek the opinion of the House.

Lord Hayhoe: I thought that the Minister said that he would look at hard cases.

Noble Lords: Order!

4.26 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 265H) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 144; Not-Contents, 150.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bancroft, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Croham, L.
Crook, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Glenamara, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Grey, E.
Hamwee, B. [Teller.]
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hylton, L.
Ilchester, E.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lytton, E.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nathan, L.
Nelson, E.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Ripon, Bp.
Rix, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wharton, B.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.
Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Berners, B.
Birdwood, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Coleridge, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Digby, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gisborough, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harrowby, E.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Keyes, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Wartnaby, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knollys, V.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Marlesford, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pike, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pym, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
St. Davids, V.
Sandford, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffield, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinton, E.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wolfson, L.
Wynford, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

25 Jun 1996 : Column 788

4.34 p.m.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

25 Jun 1996 : Column 789


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