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Lord Holme of Cheltenham: I thank the noble Baroness. It is difficult for lay Members of your Lordships' House, when faced with the legal expertise of the Government's advisers and particularly the expertise of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, who is not only a distinguished lawyer but has a unique knowledge and experience of matters in Northern Ireland, to shout into the gale of that expertise as it comes wafting towards one.

However, I am reassured by what the Minister said about options being explored. I hope that that is the case and that they are being considered actively. We shall certainly want to pursue the noble Baroness and the Government on this matter to ensure that there is some progress. I am vastly reassured that in practice there are very few such denials, at least currently.

However, despite the weight of authority with which it was given, I do not think that I am persuaded by the argument of the noble Viscount which, if I grasped it correctly--I may not have done so--is that when it comes to making judgments, people say, "This is one of the circumstances that you take into account. This chap was silent because he was denied a solicitor. You should therefore draw a different inference about his potential guilt than you would draw had he not been denied one". One takes account of the circumstances which led to the discussion of the imputation of guilt. I should prefer that to be resolved, not on grounds of common sense in the court room or, in the end, of it being a power which is

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never used in that way. I should prefer to resolve it properly. But on this occasion I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 47 agreed to.

Clauses 48 to 51 agreed to.

Clause 52 [Codes of practice: police powers]:

Baroness Denton of Wakefield moved Amendment No. 2:


Page 34, line 17, at end insert--
("( ) The Secretary of State may make codes of practice in connection with--
(a) the exercise by police officers of any power conferred by Part II of this Act or by that Act; and
(b) the seizure and retention of property found by police officers when exercising powers of search conferred by any provision of this Act or that Act.
( ) The Secretary of State may make codes of practice in connection with the exercise by members of Her Majesty's forces of any of their powers under Part II of this Act.
( ) In this section "police officer" means a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary or the Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve.").

The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 3.

Clauses 52 and 54 re-enact, in part, Section 61 of the current Act. They place a duty on the Secretary of State to make codes of practice in connection with the detention, treatment, questioning and identification of persons who are detained under the terrorism provisions. The Bill was drafted against the backdrop of a prevailing ceasefire and it omits that part of the existing provision which confers upon the Secretary of State a discretionary power to make codes of practice in connection with the police and Army's powers of arrest, search and seizure, known as the "Part II powers". No such codes were made during the lifetime of the current Act and the ceasefires had seen a significant downturn in the use of the Part II powers. In these circumstances, it was decided that the provision could lapse.

Sadly, however, the Provisional IRA has declared its ceasefire to be over; we have seen a return to violence in the form of recent mainland attacks and we cannot rule out the possibility that the security forces' Part II powers will be needed for some time to come. It is sensible therefore to re-enact the power to create, as necessary, that kind of additional safeguard which codes of practice would provide.

I explained on Second Reading that the Government had reconsidered their position on the discretionary power to make codes of practice in connection with the Part II powers. The Government believe that in the light of the changed security situation it is only sensible to re-enact the existing provision. I beg to move.

Lord Prys-Davies: Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question. Does the Secretary of State intend to use the powers contained in the amendment to Clause 52? Is there an intention to exercise that power, or is it a power to be held in reserve?

Baroness Denton of Wakefield: We had hoped that the security situation was improving in Northern

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Ireland. We continue to hope that sense and a respect for the ballot box and not for the bullet will be part of the future. The intention is to monitor the situation carefully. I am asking the Committee to approve a provision which will make those powers available for use if necessary.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 52, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 53 agreed to.

Clause 54 [Codes of practice: supplementary]:

Baroness Denton of Wakefield moved Amendment No. 3:


Page 35, line 2, at end insert--
("( ) A failure on the part of a member of Her Majesty's forces to comply with any provision of a code shall not of itself render him liable to any criminal or civil proceedings other than--
(a) proceedings under any provision of the Army Act 1955 or the Air Force Act 1955 other than section 70 (civil offences); and
(b) proceedings under any provision of the Naval Discipline Act 1957 other than section 42 (civil offences).").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 54, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 55 to 61 agreed to.

Clause 62 [Commencement, duration, expiry and revival of provisions of this Act]:

Baroness Denton of Wakefield moved Amendment No. 4:


Page 39, line 27, after ("it") insert (", or a corresponding earlier enactment,").

The noble Baroness said: The amendment would address a gap in the Bill which exists as drafted. Clause 15 restricts the remission granted under prison rules in respect of those convicted of scheduled offences and sentenced to a term of imprisonment of five years or more; in such cases remission is restricted to one third of the sentence. Clause 16 requires the court to order that a person imprisoned for a scheduled offence during a period of remission must serve the unexpired portion of the sentence for his previous offence in addition to the sentence for the subsequent offence.

Both of those provisions are temporary and Clause 62 now provides that in the event of the expiry or cesser of either provision, its operational effect shall continue in relation to an offence committed while the provision was in force. The intention is that the expiry or cesser should only affect offences committed after that event; the clause does not quite achieve this because we omitted a reference to offences committed before the current provision is enacted but during the lifetime of its predecessor provision.

The current wording of Clause 62 omits any reference to predecessor provisions; the amendment corrects this. I beg to move.

Lord Prys-Davies: I have merely a request for information. Will the Minister be good enough to refer

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the Committee to the corresponding earlier enactments which are referred to in the amendment? If it is readily available, that information would be helpful.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield: I believe that I covered that point in my remarks when presenting the amendment. We are dealing with Clauses 15 and 16, but if that reply does not answer the noble Lord's question, I shall come back to him.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 62, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 63 [Savings, amendments and repeals]:

Baroness Denton of Wakefield moved Amendment No. 5:


Page 39, line 46, at end insert--
("( ) Schedule (scheduled offences: transitional provisions) (which makes transitional provisions in relation to scheduled offences) shall have effect.").

The noble Baroness said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendment No. 6.

Because the Bill has the effect of removing certain offences from the current list of scheduled offences--that is, offences which merit special treatment under the emergency legislation--it is necessary to spell out precisely how cases involving such offences, whether committed or alleged to have been committed at the time of the Bill's enactment, should continue to be dealt with after that date.

The amendments would add a new schedule to the Bill which would set out the transitional arrangements for each case, taking into account its individual stage in the criminal justice process at the time of the Bill's enactment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 64 agreed to.

Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield moved Amendment No. 6:


After Schedule 4, insert the following new schedule--

Section 63( )
("SCHEDULE
SCHEDULED OFFENCES: TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS

1. In this Schedule "commencement" means the time when this Act comes into force.
2.--(1) This Schedule applies to offences which--
(a) were immediately before commencement specified in Part I of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991, but
(b) are not immediately after commencement specified in Part I of Schedule 1 to this Act.
(2) In relation to offences committed (or alleged to have been committed) before commencement, this Act shall apply as if offences to which this Schedule applies were specified in Part I of Schedule 1.
(3) Sub-paragraph (2) is subject to the following provisions.

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3. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 2 (preliminary inquiry) unless a request that a preliminary inquiry be held has been granted under section 2 of the 1991 Act.
4. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 3 (limitation of power to grant bail).
5. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 4 (legal aid to applicants for bail) except for the purposes of assignments made before commencement.
6. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 5 (maximum period of remand in custody) except for the purposes of orders for remand made before commencement.
7. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 6 (custody of young persons).
8. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 8 (time limits for preliminary proceedings).
9. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to sections 10 to 13 (court, mode of trial, evidence and onus of proof) except in cases where the case for the prosecution was opened, or a plea of guilty was accepted, before commencement.
10. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to sections 14 to 16 (treatment of offenders) except where the conviction of the offence in question occurred before commencement.
11. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 18 (constable's general power of arrest and seizure) except where the arrest, entry, search or seizure occurred before commencement.
12. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 46(8)(a) to (c) (right to have someone informed of detention: delay related to scheduled offence) except for the purposes of authorisations given before commencement.
13. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 47(8)(a) to (c) (right of access to legal advice: delay related to scheduled offence) except for the purposes of authorisations given before commencement.
14. Paragraph 2(2) shall not apply in relation to section 53(7) (compensation: restriction) except where the act in question was done before commencement.
15. Note 1 of Part I of Schedule 1 shall apply to any offence to which the corresponding note in the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1991 applied.").

The noble Baroness said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Remaining schedules agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.


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