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Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, would my noble friend agree to draw to the attention of the franchising director the present performance of SNCF in considering any tenders that might be coming with regard to franchises that might be let in the future?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I believe that the franchising director is extremely well aware of the performance of railway companies not only in the UK but overseas also.

Lord Monkswell: My Lords, is the Minister aware that Stagecoach, which is, I believe, one of the bidders for the Great Western Railway franchise, does not have any bus operations in Hampshire? What guarantee will the Government give that trains on the Great Western Railway will actually stop in Hampshire in future?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, as I explained earlier, the guarantees are provided in the passenger service requirement, which, for the first time, lays down the minima in terms of service provision.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, a recent report from the rail regulator, referred to in the press at the weekend,

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referred to contracts between the franchising director and franchisees, making it clear that franchisees could cut their services if ticket demand fell, if the government subsidy dropped and, lastly and most surprisingly, if the franchisee loses more than 10 per cent. of his rolling stock through poor maintenance. Therefore, is it not in the franchisee's interests to let his rolling stock run down, take the subsidy and then run away?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, no, I do not believe that that is the case. It is in the train operator's interests to make sure that he gets the maximum number of passengers on his services and that he provides the best possible service to his customers so that he can then go on to negotiate further service agreements after the expiry of his contract.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, is my noble friend--

Noble Lords: Next Question!

Carrying of Knives: Police Powers

3.26 p.m.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes asked Her Majesty's Government:

    Whether they will make it illegal throughout the United Kingdom to carry dangerous knives, as is already the case under Scottish law.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, it is already an offence in England and Wales to carry a knife, other than a small folding pocket knife, in public without good reason or lawful authority. The Scottish offence is almost identical.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, but in the reports of very tragic incidents which we all deeply regret, including the most recent one involving Dr Sharpey-Schafer, I have heard the police comment that in this country the carrying of a knife is not in itself an offence and that the police have to be able to prove intent. I have also heard that when people are arrested for entirely different offences and empty their pockets in a police station, dangerous knives appear regularly among their possessions, yet the police are unable to charge because they would not be able to convict without proving intent. Is that the case?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, there are two offences. First, there is the Section 139 offence under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 whereby carrying a knife, other than a small folding penknife, in public without good reason or lawful authority is an offence. Secondly, there is a higher level offence if it can be proved that the weapon was carried with intent to cause injury. That is an even more serious offence. As I understand it, the proposal for change, supported by the police, is that both offences should be arrestable without a warrant and that the sentence for the lower level offence should be increased.

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Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: My Lords, I have heard it said that the Scottish regime has changed in recent years and with very beneficial results. Can my noble friend confirm that, or is it incorrect?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, there are two aspects to the Scottish provisions. First, the powers in Scotland are almost identical to those in England, but there is only one sentence covering both offences--up to two years' imprisonment. In England and Wales at the moment there is a lower level offence with a maximum sentence of a £1,000 fine. There is also a more serious offence relating to intent to use the weapon where the sentence is up to two years' imprisonment. The intention is to increase the sentence for the lower level offence. There is very little between them. The other aspect of the Scottish system is that it has been more successfully applied, I understand, than that in England and Wales. I know that there is scope for the police here to apply the law in the way in which the law is applied in Scotland.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, is the Minister aware that we on these Benches share the distress and concern expressed at the recent tragedy in Maida Vale and that if any parliamentary action is required to deal with that concern either in the form of legislation or in terms of sentencing, the Government will have our entire support?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I very much welcome that. This is one of the issues that brings all parties together. I believe that whatever we can do in the form of strengthening the law and strengthening sentences, we should do.

Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when the Scottish legislation was being considered in Parliament a few years ago, opposition came from civil liberties groups concerned about selective use by the police of their powers of search? Does my noble friend agree that that consideration is clearly outweighed by what has happened in recent serious and tragic incidents?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I agree absolutely with my noble friend. I would remind him that it was only last year in the Criminal Justice Act that powers of stop and search were strengthened. Consideration of the protection of the public far outweighs the inconvenience of being stopped and searched for what might be a lethal offensive weapon.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, is not the use of knives one minor component of the vast problem of the growing propensity to resort to violence? Instead of reacting in a knee-jerk way to one incident, however tragic, should we not be considering, by the appointment of a Royal Commission, for example, the general problem of violence in our society and its etiology?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, first, this is not reacting in a knee-jerk way. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary was already discussing with the police ways of strengthening the law in this regard. The work was already under way when that very tragic murder occurred. The scope for strengthening the lower level sentence is important. We must do as much as we

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possibly can to stop the incidence of carrying knives. What is worrying about the evidence we have so far is that younger people are resorting to carrying knives. We want to do what we can to ensure that that does not happen and to give the police the power that they need to stop, to search, and to ensure that they deter people from carrying these weapons.

Lord Elton: My Lords, did I understand my noble friend to say that both the offences of carrying dangerous knives, which she described, are not arrestable without a warrant? If so, can she be assured that many of us think it ludicrous that a policeman would have to obtain a warrant after finding someone carrying such a knife and that we would co-operate in changing the law in that respect?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, there are some conditions under which the police can arrest without a warrant, but they have to be certain that they can prove they had good reason to do so. We are relaxing things somewhat to allow the police to make a judgment as to whether they should arrest on sight. As I understand it, that would be one of the proposals in the Bill. I know that the police will find that enormously helpful.

Broadcasting Bill [H.L.]

3.32 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of National Heritage (Lord Inglewood): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make new provision about the broadcasting in digital form of television and sound programme services and the broadcasting in that form on television or radio frequencies of other services; to amend the Broadcasting Act 1990; to provide for the establishment and functions of a Broadcasting Standards Commission and for the dissolution of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and the Broadcasting Standards Council; to make provision for the transfer to other persons of property, rights and liabilities of the British Broadcasting Corporation relating to its transmission network; and for connected purposes.

I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be read a first time.--(Lord Inglewood.)

On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Community Representation Bill [H.L.]

3.33 p.m.

Lord Sandys: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to provide for the creation in England of parishes in unparished areas and in cities and towns where charter trustees have been constituted.

I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be read a first time.--(Lord Sandys.)

On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.


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