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237After Clause 133, insert the following clause:

Hybrid occupational pension schemes

'.—(1) In spite of anything in sections 9 and 12 of the Pension Schemes Act 1993 (requirements for certification and determination of basis on which scheme is contracted-out), the Secretary of State may by regulations provide, where the pensions provided by an occupational pension scheme include both—
(a) such pensions that, if the scheme provided only those pensions, it would satisfy section 9(2) of that Act, and
(b) such other pensions that, if the scheme provided only those other pensions, it would satisfy section 9(3) of that Act,
for Part III of that Act to have effect as if the scheme were two separate schemes providing, respectively, the pensions referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b).
(2) Regulations made by the Secretary of State may, in connection with any provision made by virtue of subsection (1), make such modifications of the following Acts, and the instruments made or having effect as if made under them, as appear to the Secretary of State desirable: the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, the Pension Schemes Act 1993 and Part I of this Act.'.
238Clause 139, page 93, line 12, leave out 'a prescribed amount' and insert 'an amount specified in the regulations; and the regulations must specify different amounts in the case of individuals from those specified in other cases and any amount so specified may not exceed the amount for the

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time being specified in the case of individuals or, as the case may be, others in section 10(1A) (a) of the Pensions Act 1995.
( ) Regulations made by virtue of subsection (4) do not affect the amount of any penalty recoverable under that subsection by reason of an act or omission occurring before the regulations are made.'.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 234 to 238. I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 234 to 238.—(Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.


COMMONS AMENDMENTS
239Clause 140, page 94, line 35, leave out 'and the Treasury'.
240Page 94, line 38, leave out 'and the Treasury'.
241Clause 142, page 97, leave out lines 21 and 22 and insert:
'(c) for the payment by the Ombudsman of such travelling and other allowances (including compensation for loss of remunerative time) as the Secretary of State may determine, to—
(i) actual or potential beneficiaries of a scheme to which a complaint or reference relates, or
(ii) persons appearing and being heard on behalf of such actual or potential beneficiaries,
who attend at the request of the Ombudsman any oral hearing held in connection with an investigation into the complaint or dispute.", and'.
242Clause 144, page 98, line 22, leave out 'the trustees or managers' and insert 'a person responsible for the management'.
243Page 98, line 26, leave out 'for the prescribed period'.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 239 to 243. At the same time I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 370 and 371. This group contains amendments which, I hope your Lordships will agree, improve the provisions for the pensions ombudsman. Amendment No. 241 will allow rules to be made providing for the ombudsman to pay travelling and other allowances to individuals when they are invited to attend oral hearings. Amendment No. 242 replaces the reference to the trustees or managers of an occupational or personal pension scheme with a reference to those responsible for the management of the scheme. This brings Clause 144 into line with the changes made by Clause 141 to the ombudsman provisions in Section 146 of the Pension Schemes Act. It will ensure that the ombudsman can include interest in any direction he makes involving late payment of benefits.

Amendment No. 243 removes the power to make regulations to specify the period for which interest should be awarded. The ombudsman is best able to decide the period for which interest should be paid. This amendment will ensure that he has discretion to do so.

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Amendment No. 371 will simplify the procedures in Scotland by which a complainant can enforce a determination of the pensions ombudsman. It will ensure that the enforcement procedures in Scotland are as simple and as straightforward as those already provided for in England and Wales. Although these may seem to be comparatively minor amendments, they are nevertheless useful.

This may be the last time that I shall be on my feet this afternoon on the Pensions Bill. Perhaps I may thank all those noble Lords who have taken a close interest in the Bill, especially for their co-operation this afternoon in moving all the Commons amendments. Although we disagree on one or two parts of the Bill, by and large I think your Lordships will agree that we are giving to the pensions world a much improved situation for looking after the position of all those people who have made pension provision for their retirement. In addition, there are the other matters we have dealt with, such as the war widow's pension. I hope that those of your Lordships who are, as I have described you before, the "season ticket holders" feel that the season ticket has been well worth it. Perhaps I may say that after today the season ticket can be returned. I beg to move.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 239 to 243.—(Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish.)

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, obviously we have no objection to these amendments. They are among the very many that we welcome. On behalf of these Benches we thank the Minister for the clarity with which he was able to take us through the very extensive business today. Obviously, we regret that in some areas he has been unable to go as far as we would wish. We are sorry about the SERPS amendment, which has tarnished somewhat the nature of the Bill which, for the most part, we welcome. As regards the return of the season ticket, my noble friend Lord Macaulay asks what arrangements is the Minister proposing to make for Friday when we have a rail strike?

Baroness Seear: My Lords, I pay tribute to the Minister for his determination and staying power. He has had three absolutely appalling Bills to put through this House. There are still some to come. He has had business piled on him pretty heavily. We appreciate his staying power and good temper. There are changes in the Bill which we very much welcome. We would have liked to have had others, but no doubt they will come in the future.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to both Baronesses. While of course I admire my own staying power, I equally admire the staying power of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollis and Lady Seear; especially that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. She has burned the midnight oil with me on this Bill as indeed on the others. Therefore, I believe that the plaudits about my stamina should be widened to include others in your Lordships' House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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COMMONS AMENDMENTS
244Clause 146, page 98, line 42, leave out 'made' and insert 'in respect of employment carried on'.
245Page 99, line 2, leave out 'made' and insert 'in respect of employment carried on'.
246Clause 147, page 99, line 22, leave out from second 'the' to end of line 25 and insert 'revaluation percentage for the revaluation period the reference period for which ends with the last preceding 30th September before the increase is made (expressions used in this definition having the same meaning as in paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to the Pension Schemes Act 1993 (methods of revaluing accrued pension benefits)'.
247Page 99, leave out lines 30 to 34.
248Clause 149, page 100, line 6, at end insert 'or'.
249Page 100, line 11, leave out from 'Registrar)' to end of line 13.
250Page 100, line 17, leave out 'this section' and insert 'subsection (1)'.
251Page 100, line 40, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
'(3A) Regulations may make provision for imposing a levy in respect of prescribed occupational pension schemes for the purpose of meeting expenditure of the Pensions Compensation Board (including the establishment of the Board).
(3B) Any levy imposed under subsection (3A) is payable to the Board by or on behalf of—
(a) the trustees of any prescribed occupational pension scheme, or
(b) any other prescribed person,
at prescribed times and at a rate, not exceeding the prescribed rate, determined by the Board.
(3C) In determining the amount of expenditure in respect of which any levy under subsection (3A) is to be imposed, the Board, and regulations made by virtue of subsection (3B), may take one year with another and, accordingly, may have regard to expenditure estimated to be incurred in current or future periods and to actual expenditure incurred in previous periods (including periods ending before the coming into force of this subsection).
(3D) Notice of the rates determined by the Board under subsection (3B) must be given to prescribed persons in the prescribed manner.
(4) An amount payable by a person on account of a levy imposed under this section shall be a debt due from him to the appropriate person, that is—
(a) if the levy is imposed under subsection (1), the Secretary of State, and
(b) if the levy is imposed under subsection (3A), the Board,
and an amount so payable shall be recoverable by the appropriate person accordingly or, if the appropriate person so determines, be recoverable by the Registrar on behalf of the appropriate person.'.
252Page 100, line 43, leave out 'subsection (1)' and insert 'subsections (1) and (3A)'.
253Page 100, line 45, after 'to' insert '(a)'.
254Page 100, line 46, at end insert 'or
(b) the circumstances in which any such amount may be waived'.
255Clause 150, page 101, line 8, leave out 'in the foreseeable future'.
256Page 101, line 14, at end insert:
'and, accordingly, in relation to benefits under a pension scheme, section 25(2) (a) above shall have effect as if "in the foreseeable future" were omitted'.
257Page 101, line 17, leave out 'in the foreseeable future'.

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258Page 101, line 28, leave out from 'such' to 'section' in line 29 and insert:
'matter.

(3) The following provisions apply where, having regard to any benefits under a pension scheme, the court determines to make an order under section 23 above.
(4) To the extent to which the order is made having regard to any benefits under a pension scheme, the order may require the trustees or managers of the pension scheme in question, if at any time any payment in respect of any benefits under the scheme becomes due to the party with pension rights, to make a payment for the benefit of the other party.
(5) The amount of any payment which, by virtue of subsection (4) above, the trustees or managers are required to make under the order at any time shall not exceed the amount of the payment which is due at that time to the party with pension rights.
(6) Any such payment by the trustees or managers—
(a) shall discharge so much of the trustees or managers liability to the party with pension rights as corresponds to the amount of the payment, and
(b) shall be treated for all purposes as a payment made by the party with pension rights in or towards the discharge of his liability under the order.
(7) Where the party with pension rights may require any benefits which he has or is likely to have under the scheme to be commuted, the order may require him to commute the whole or part of those benefits; and this section applies to the payment of any amount commuted in pursuance of the order as it applies to other payments in respect of benefits under the scheme.
Pensions: lump sums.

25C.—(1) The power of the court under section 23 above to order a party to a marriage to pay a lump sum to the other party includes, where the benefits which the party with pension rights has or is likely to have under a pension scheme include any lump sum payable in respect of his death, power to make any of the following provision by the order.
(2) The court may—
(a) if the trustees or managers of the pension scheme in question have power to determine the person to whom the sum, or any part of it, is to be paid, require them to pay the whole or part of that sum, when it becomes due, to the other party,
(b) if the party with pension rights has power to nominate the person to whom the sum, or any part of it, is to be paid, require the party with pension rights to nominate the other party in respect of the whole or part of that sum,
(c) in any other case, require the trustees or managers of the pension scheme in question to pay the whole or part of that sum, when it becomes due, for the benefit of the other party instead of to the person to whom, apart from the order, it would be paid.
(3) Any payment by the trustees or managers under an order made under section 23 above by virtue of this section shall discharge so much of the trustees or managers liability in respect of the party with pension rights as corresponds to the amount of the payment.
Pensions: supplementary.

25D.—(1) Where—
(a) an order made under section 23 above by virtue of section 25B or 25C above imposes any requirement on the trustees or managers of a pension scheme ("the first scheme") and the party with pension rights acquires transfer

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credits under another pension scheme ("the new scheme") which are derived (directly or indirectly) from a transfer from the first scheme of all his accrued rights under that scheme (including transfer credits allowed by that scheme), and
(b) the trustees or managers of the new scheme have been given notice in accordance with regulations,
the order shall have effect as if it has been made instead in respect of the trustees or managers of the new scheme; and in this subsection "transfer credits" has the same meaning as in the Pension Schemes Act 1993.
(2) Regulations may—
(a) in relation to any provision of sections 25B or 25C above which authorises the court making an order under section 23 above to require the trustees or managers of a pension scheme to make a payment for the benefit of the other party, make provision as to the person to whom, and the terms on which, the payment is to be made,
(b) require notices to be given in respect of changes of circumstances relevant to such orders which include provision made by virtue of sections 25B and 25C,
(c) make provision for the trustees or managers of any pension scheme to provide, for the purposes of orders under section 23 above, information as to the value of any benefits under the scheme,
(d) make provision for the recovery of the administrative expenses of—
(i) complying with such orders, so far as they include provision made by virtue of sections 25B and 25C, and
(ii) providing such information,
from the party with pension rights or the other party,
(e) make provision for the value of any benefits under a pension scheme to be calculated and verified, for the purposes of orders under section 23 above, in a prescribed manner,
and regulations made by virtue of paragraph (e) above may provide for that value to be calculated and verified in accordance with guidance which is prepared and from time to time revised by a prescribed person and approved by the Secretary of State.
(3) In this section and sections 25B and 25C—
(a) references to a pension scheme include—
(i) a retirement annuity contract, or
(ii) an annuity, or insurance policy, purchased or transferred for the purpose of giving effect to rights under a pension scheme,
(b) in relation to such a contract or annuity, references to the trustees or managers shall be read as references to the provider of the annuity,
(c) in relation to such a policy, references to the trustees or managers shall be read as references to the insurer,
and in section 25B(1) and (2) above, references to benefits under a pension scheme include any benefits by way of pension, whether under a pension scheme or not.
(4) In this section and sections 25B and 25C above—
"the party with pension rights" means the party to the marriage who has or is likely to have benefits under a pension scheme and "the other party" means the other party to the marriage,

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"pension scheme" means an occupational pension scheme or a personal pension scheme (applying the definitions in section 1 of the Pension Schemes Act 1993, but as if the reference to employed earners in the definition of "personal pension scheme" were to any earners),
"prescribed" means prescribed by regulations, and
"regulations" means regulations made by the Lord Chancellor;
and the power to make regulations under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument, which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.".
( ) In'.
259Page 101, line 30 at end insert:
'( ) In section 31 of that Act (variation, discharge, etc. of orders)—
(a) in subsection (2), after paragraph (d) there is inserted—
"(dd) any deferred order made by virtue of section 23(1) (c) (lump sums) which includes provision made by virtue of—
(i) section 25B(4), or
(ii) section 25C,
(provision in respect of pension rights)", and
(b) after subsection (2A) there is inserted—
"(2B) Where the court has made an order referred to in subsection (2) (dd) (ii) above, this section shall cease to apply to the order on the death of either of the parties to the marriage." '.


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