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Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—

Baroness Trumpington: Noble Lady!

Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I am sorry. Given that everyone is waiting for the current discussions to produce something positive, can the noble Baroness say whether it is in the minds of her ministerial colleagues to say that, if required, they would welcome becoming involved in helping to produce a good solution? We are not talking about merely finance. I am concerned about the impact on the river and on similar great buildings.

Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord says. At the moment, the Government are not a party to the discussions, so it is not for me to comment. However, as I said earlier, I understand that joint planning for the future is being discussed.

Lord Dubs: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask whether she will agree to think again about the points that have been made? If reports from English Heritage say that because the building has not yet fallen down, all is not disaster, perhaps I may advise her that that is a low level of achievement. Will the noble Baroness take away with her the thought that the Government could be the catalyst and could generate some excitement by getting architects involved and seeing the scheme as one of the most wonderful opportunities for the future of London? Does the noble Baroness agree that if we leave things as they are now, this situation might drag on for years?

Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, as Battersea Power Station is a listed building, it is the duty of English Heritage to make sure that it is protected. I hope

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that I have made it quite clear this evening that it will continue to be a listed building. I do not think that I can go any further than that at the moment.

Viscount Long: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 7.50 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.46 to 7.50 p.m.]

Pensions Bill [H.L.]

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.

Clause 16 [Member-nominated trustees: supplementary]:

Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 50:


Page 8, line 9, leave out (" 3") and insert ("(Prohibition orders)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 23 [Section 22: Consequences]:

Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 51:


Page 12, line 18, leave out (" 3") and insert ("(Prohibition orders)").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 24 [Persons disqualified for being trustees]:

Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 52:


Page 12, line 26, at end insert:
("(bb) where the person is a company, if any director of the company is disqualified under this section,
(bc) where the person is a Scottish partnership, if any partner is disqualified under this section").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 54, 55, 56, 57, 58 and 59. These amendments introduce changes to disqualification provisions in Clauses 24 and 25. Amendment No. 52 provides that a company is automatically disqualified from being a trustee of an occupational pension scheme if any of its directors are disqualified from acting as a trustee of a pension scheme under the provisions of Clause 24. Similarly, a Scottish partnership is automatically disqualified from being a trustee of an occupational pension scheme if any partner is disqualified. That automatically prevents individuals who are disqualified from acting as a trustee from being able to circumvent their disqualification by hiding behind the legal identity afforded to a company or Scottish partnership.

Amendment No. 57 is consequential on Amendment No. 52. It removes subsection (6) which is made redundant by the new wider automatic disqualification provision introduced by Amendment No. 52. That provides greater protection to schemes than that provided by Clause 24. As it currently stands, Clause 24 provides for the authority to remove or prohibit the company or partnership only in respect of a particular scheme. Companies and Scottish partnerships can

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ensure that they are not disqualified under the new provisions simply by ensuring that none of their directors or partners is a disqualified person.

The authority will be able to use this power only if the individual in question has breached an obligation placed upon him by Part I of the Bill and is to be prohibited in respect of it. That individual will be able to ask for prohibition to be reviewed in the usual way. If the decision to prohibit were to be overturned, the authority would not be able to disqualify him.

Amendment No. 54 provides for the authority to disqualify any person it has prohibited from acting as a trustee for a breach of the provisions of Part I of the Bill, if it considers it desirable to do so. It enables the authority, when considering whether to disqualify a person who has been prohibited, to take into account all relevant factors—to consider disqualification "in the round" and not just in the more restricted context of the particular actions which led to the prohibition.

Amendment No. 55 provides for the authority to disqualify a person from being a trustee of an occupational pension scheme if he is incapable of acting as such because of a mental disorder or where he is a company which has gone into liquidation. I am delighted to see that the usual third of that triumvirate—the mad and and the bankrupt—in other words, the Peerage, is not included in that provision. That provides the authority with the power to disqualify such people form being trustees and increases the protection that can be afforded to occupational pension schemes.

Amendment No. 56 is consequential upon Amendment No. 55. It adds a reference to new subsection (3A) so that the authority can consider revoking or waiving its disqualification on the application of the person who is disqualified.

Amendments Nos. 58 and 59 address the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, in Committee, when he moved Amendment No. 118L, that everyone who needed information on whether a person was disqualified should be able to get it.

I explained then the intention of Clause 25(7) to allow for any person who has concerns about either a particular person acting as a trustee of a scheme or a person under consideration for appointment as a trustee to be able to check whether the person in question is shown in the authority's register as being disqualified. These amendments enable a person who has an interest in a scheme to obtain the information from the authority.

The subsection will ensure that the authority is required to state only whether a person named by an inquirer is disqualified in respect of a particular scheme named by the inquirer. The reason is that some people may be disqualified in respect of a particular class or group for schemes only. There is also a need to protect those listed in the register from having the information held on them being used for purposes which have nothing to do with whether or not they should act as the trustee of a particular scheme. That is why the register will not be available for public inspection. I commend the amendment to the House.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

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Lord Lucas moved Amendments Nos. 53 to 57:


Page 13, line 3, leave out from ("person") to ("(whether") in line 6 and insert:
("( ) is prohibited from being a trustee of a trust scheme by an order under section (Prohibition orders), or
( ) has been removed as a trustee of a trust scheme by an order made").
Page 13, line 11, leave out from ("if") to ("by") in line 12 and insert ("in their opinion it is not desirable for him to be a trustee of any trust scheme").
Page 13, line 13, at end insert:
("(3A) The Authority may by order disqualify a person for being a trustee of any trust scheme where—
(a) in their opinion he is incapable of acting as such a trustee by reason of mental disorder (within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 1983 or, as respects Scotland, the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984), or
(b) the person is a company which has gone into liquidation (within the meaning of section 247(2) of the Insolvency Act 1986).").
Page 13, line 17, after ("(3)") insert ("or (3A)").
Page 13, line 23, leave out subsection (6).

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to these amendments with Amendments Nos. 3 and 52. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 25 [Persons disqualified: consequences]:

Lord Lucas moved Amendments Nos. 58 and 59:


Page 14, line 9, leave out from ("so") to ("disclose") in line 10.
Page 14, line 11, at end insert ("in respect of a scheme so specified").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to these amendments with Amendment No. 52. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 26 [Trustees not to be indemnified for fines or civil penalties]:


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