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Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for his exposition of the reason why he does not feel that the amendments are appropriate. First, I emphasise that they form a package. I have said that three times and I say it again. I do not wish to convey the impression to noble Lords that a provision designating abandoned mines as contaminated land would last five years. I regard that as an intermediate solution, except for metalliferous mines, to which the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, drew our attention. I agree with him that at the moment there is no provision for dealing with metalliferous mines which have already been abandoned. We shall not oppose the government amendments about guidance on dealing with

7 Mar 1995 : Column 153

contaminated land. Dealing with metalliferous mines might well be included in that framework, perhaps in the form of guidance to local authorities or something similar.

I said at the outset that I believe that there is a real and immediate problem. I have heard many reasons for the Government wishing to postpone action for five years and I accept the noble Viscount's assurance that privatisation proceeds are not the only matter. We had the reason that the Government wanted to allow mine owners time to adapt to change. Another reason was the wish to allow land values to adjust. We now have the explanation that the exemption has existed for a long time and that we must give it time to run out so that everyone can accept that it no longer exists.

I do not believe that any of the explanations address the problems set out with great effect and sincerity by my noble friend Lord Mason of Barnsley. There is a real threat and danger. The coal mining communities and the metal mining communities have suffered and will continue to suffer. I do not believe that the Government have taken matters as seriously as they should. This is the time to introduce a package and for noble Lords to take the matter in hand and say to the Government, "This is what we want". We wish to ensure that the future of areas where pollution has been caused by industrial and mining activities is protected and the effects mediated soon. For that reason, I wish to ask the opinion of the House. I commend the amendment.

5.15 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 128B) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 105; Not-Contents, 175.

Division No. 1


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Airedale, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bottomley, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crook, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ennals, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenamara, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Gregson, L.
Grey, E.
Halsbury, E.
Hamwee, B. [Teller.]
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kintore, E.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mulley, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Parry, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shaughnessy, L.
Sheffield, Bp.
Shepherd, L.
Stedman, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Walpole, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.


Aberdare, L.
Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Ampthill, L.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Borthwick, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Burton, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clinton, L.
Coleraine, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crawshaw, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dundee, E.
Dunrossil, V.
Elibank, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Faithfull, B.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gage, V.
Gainsborough, E.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hampden, V.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harrowby, E.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hertford, M.
Hesketh, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchcape, E.
Inchyra, L.
Inglewood, L. [Teller.]
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Killearn, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Wartnaby, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Knutsford, V.
Lindsay, E.
Long, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Macleod of Borve, B.
Mancroft, L.
Manton, L.
Marlesford, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Melville, V.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monson, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Morris, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newall, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Orkney, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Romney, E.
Saint Oswald, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.
Sudeley, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wharton, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wise, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

7 Mar 1995 : Column 155

5.26 p.m.

Viscount Ullswater moved Amendment No. 128C:

Page 45, leave out lines 13 to 15 and insert:
("(a) significant harm is being caused or there is a significant possibility of such harm being caused; or
(b) pollution of controlled waters is being, or is likely to be, caused;").

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment when the noble Earl, Lord Kintore, spoke to his Amendment No. 128. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 128D and 128E not moved.]

Viscount Ullswater moved Amendment No. 128F:

Page 45, line 15, at end insert:
("and, in determining whether any land appears to be such land, a local authority shall, subject to subsection (8A) below, act in accordance with guidance issued by the Secretary of State in accordance with section 78R below with respect to the manner in which that determination is to be made.").

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment together with Amendment No. 128C. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 128G and 128H not moved.]

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