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Clause 14

Universal credit: limited capability for work element

Amendment proposed: 20, page 14, line 39, leave out Clause 14—(Debbie Abrahams.)

The House divided:

Ayes 284, Noes 315.

Division No. 97]

[

6.13 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Abrahams, Debbie

Ahmed-Sheikh, Ms Tasmina

Alexander, Heidi

Ali, Rushanara

Allen, Mr Graham

Anderson, Mr David

Arkless, Richard

Ashworth, Jonathan

Austin, Ian

Bailey, Mr Adrian

Bardell, Hannah

Barron, rh Kevin

Beckett, rh Margaret

Black, Mhairi

Blackford, Ian

Blackman, Kirsty

Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta

Blenkinsop, Tom

Blomfield, Paul

Boswell, Philip

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brake, rh Tom

Brennan, Kevin

Brock, Deidre

Brown, Alan

Brown, Lyn

Brown, rh Mr Nicholas

Bryant, Chris

Buck, Ms Karen

Burden, Richard

Burgon, Richard

Burnham, rh Andy

Butler, Dawn

Byrne, rh Liam

Cadbury, Ruth

Cameron, Dr Lisa

Campbell, rh Mr Alan

Campbell, Mr Ronnie

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair

Chapman, Douglas

Chapman, Jenny

Cherry, Joanna

Clwyd, rh Ann

Coaker, Vernon

Coffey, Ann

Cooper, Julie

Cooper, rh Yvette

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cowan, Ronnie

Cox, Jo

Coyle, Neil

Crausby, Mr David

Crawley, Angela

Creagh, Mary

Creasy, Stella

Cruddas, Jon

Cryer, John

Cummins, Judith

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Mr Jim

Dakin, Nic

David, Wayne

Davies, Geraint

Day, Martyn

De Piero, Gloria

Docherty, Martin John

Dodds, rh Mr Nigel

Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.

Donaldson, Stuart Blair

Doughty, Stephen

Dowd, Jim

Dowd, Peter

Dromey, Jack

Dugher, Michael

Durkan, Mark

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eagle, Maria

Edwards, Jonathan

Efford, Clive

Elliott, Julie

Elliott, Tom

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Esterson, Bill

Evans, Chris

Farrelly, Paul

Fellows, Marion

Ferrier, Margaret

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Flello, Robert

Fletcher, Colleen

Flint, rh Caroline

Flynn, Paul

Fovargue, Yvonne

Gapes, Mike

Gardiner, Barry

Gethins, Stephen

Gibson, Patricia

Glass, Pat

Glindon, Mary

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goodman, Helen

Grady, Patrick

Grant, Peter

Gray, Neil

Green, Kate

Greenwood, Lilian

Greenwood, Margaret

Griffith, Nia

Gwynne, Andrew

Haigh, Louise

Hamilton, Fabian

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Harpham, Harry

Harris, Carolyn

Hayes, Helen

Hayman, Sue

Healey, rh John

Hendrick, Mr Mark

Hendry, Drew

Hepburn, Mr Stephen

Hermon, Lady

Hillier, Meg

Hodge, rh Dame Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hoey, Kate

Hollern, Kate

Hopkins, Kelvin

Hosie, Stewart

Howarth, rh Mr George

Hunt, Tristram

Huq, Dr Rupa

Hussain, Imran

Irranca-Davies, Huw

Jarvis, Dan

Johnson, rh Alan

Johnson, Diana

Jones, Gerald

Jones, Graham

Jones, Helen

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Susan Elan

Kane, Mike

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Keeley, Barbara

Kendall, Liz

Kerevan, George

Kerr, Calum

Kinahan, Danny

Kinnock, Stephen

Kyle, Peter

Lammy, rh Mr David

Lavery, Ian

Law, Chris

Leslie, Chris

Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma

Lewis, Clive

Lewis, Mr Ivan

Long Bailey, Rebecca

Lucas, Caroline

Lucas, Ian C.

Lynch, Holly

MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan

Madders, Justin

Mahmood, Shabana

Malhotra, Seema

Mann, John

Marris, Rob

Marsden, Mr Gordon

Maskell, Rachael

Matheson, Christian

Mc Nally, John

McCabe, Steve

McCaig, Callum

McCarthy, Kerry

McDonagh, Siobhain

McDonald, Andy

McDonald, Stewart Malcolm

McDonald, Stuart C.

McDonnell, John

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGarry, Natalie

McGinn, Conor

McGovern, Alison

McInnes, Liz

McKinnell, Catherine

McLaughlin, Anne

Meale, Sir Alan

Mearns, Ian

Miliband, rh Edward

Monaghan, Carol

Monaghan, Dr Paul

Morden, Jessica

Morris, Grahame M.

Mullin, Roger

Murray, Ian

Nandy, Lisa

Newlands, Gavin

Nicolson, John

O'Hara, Brendan

Onn, Melanie

Onwurah, Chi

Osamor, Kate

Oswald, Kirsten

Paisley, Ian

Paterson, Steven

Pearce, Teresa

Pennycook, Matthew

Perkins, Toby

Phillips, Jess

Phillipson, Bridget

Pound, Stephen

Powell, Lucy

Qureshi, Yasmin

Reed, Mr Jamie

Reed, Mr Steve

Rees, Christina

Reynolds, Emma

Reynolds, Jonathan

Rimmer, Marie

Ritchie, Ms Margaret

Robertson, rh Angus

Robinson, Gavin

Robinson, Mr Geoffrey

Rotheram, Steve

Ryan, rh Joan

Salmond, rh Alex

Saville Roberts, Liz

Shah, Naz

Shannon, Jim

Sharma, Mr Virendra

Sheppard, Tommy

Sherriff, Paula

Shuker, Mr Gavin

Siddiq, Tulip

Simpson, David

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Slaughter, Andy

Smeeth, Ruth

Smith, rh Mr Andrew

Smith, Angela

Smith, Cat

Smith, Jeff

Smith, Nick

Smith, Owen

Smyth, Karin

Starmer, Keir

Stephens, Chris

Stevens, Jo

Streeting, Wes

Stringer, Graham

Stuart, rh Ms Gisela

Tami, Mark

Thewliss, Alison

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Thomas-Symonds, Nick

Thompson, Owen

Thomson, Michelle

Thornberry, Emily

Timms, rh Stephen

Trickett, Jon

Turley, Anna

Turner, Karl

Twigg, Derek

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Vaz, rh Keith

Vaz, Valerie

Watson, Mr Tom

Weir, Mike

West, Catherine

Whiteford, Dr Eilidh

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Whitford, Dr Philippa

Williams, Hywel

Wilson, Corri

Wilson, Phil

Wilson, Sammy

Winnick, Mr David

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Wishart, Pete

Woodcock, John

Wright, Mr Iain

Zeichner, Daniel

Tellers for the Ayes:

Vicky Foxcroft

and

Angela Rayner

NOES

Adams, Nigel

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Allan, Lucy

Amess, Sir David

Andrew, Stuart

Ansell, Caroline

Argar, Edward

Atkins, Victoria

Bacon, Mr Richard

Baker, Mr Steve

Baldwin, Harriett

Barclay, Stephen

Baron, Mr John

Barwell, Gavin

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Benyon, Richard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Berry, James

Bingham, Andrew

Blackman, Bob

Blackwood, Nicola

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Borwick, Victoria

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brazier, Mr Julian

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brokenshire, rh James

Bruce, Fiona

Buckland, Robert

Burns, rh Sir Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burt, rh Alistair

Cairns, Alun

Carmichael, Neil

Cartlidge, James

Cash, Sir William

Caulfield, Maria

Chalk, Alex

Chishti, Rehman

Chope, Mr Christopher

Churchill, Jo

Clark, rh Greg

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Cleverly, James

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Costa, Alberto

Cox, Mr Geoffrey

Crabb, rh Stephen

Crouch, Tracey

Davies, Byron

Davies, Chris

Davies, David T. C.

Davies, Glyn

Davies, Dr James

Davies, Mims

Davies, Philip

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Donelan, Michelle

Dorries, Nadine

Double, Steve

Dowden, Oliver

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Drummond, Mrs Flick

Duddridge, James

Duncan, rh Sir Alan

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Mr Nigel

Evennett, rh Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, rh Michael

Fernandes, Suella

Field, rh Mark

Foster, Kevin

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Frazer, Lucy

Freeman, George

Freer, Mike

Fuller, Richard

Fysh, Marcus

Gale, Sir Roger

Garnier, rh Sir Edward

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

Ghani, Nusrat

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goldsmith, Zac

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Gove, rh Michael

Graham, Richard

Grant, Mrs Helen

Gray, Mr James

Grayling, rh Chris

Green, Chris

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Grieve, rh Mr Dominic

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Halfon, rh Robert

Hall, Luke

Hammond, rh Mr Philip

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, rh Matthew

Hands, rh Greg

Harper, rh Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, rh Mr John

Heald, Sir Oliver

Heappey, James

Heaton-Harris, Chris

Heaton-Jones, Peter

Henderson, Gordon

Herbert, rh Nick

Hinds, Damian

Hoare, Simon

Hollingbery, George

Hollinrake, Kevin

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Holloway, Mr Adam

Hopkins, Kris

Howarth, Sir Gerald

Howell, John

Howlett, Ben

Huddleston, Nigel

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hurd, Mr Nick

Jackson, Mr Stewart

James, Margot

Javid, rh Sajid

Jayawardena, Mr Ranil

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Jenkyns, Andrea

Jenrick, Robert

Johnson, Boris

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, rh Mr David

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kennedy, Seema

Knight, rh Sir Greg

Knight, Julian

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Lancaster, Mark

Latham, Pauline

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Dr Phillip

Leigh, Sir Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lopresti, Jack

Lord, Jonathan

Loughton, Tim

Lumley, Karen

Mackinlay, Craig

Mackintosh, David

Main, Mrs Anne

Mak, Mr Alan

Malthouse, Kit

Mann, Scott

Mathias, Dr Tania

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

Menzies, Mark

Mercer, Johnny

Merriman, Huw

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Mrs Maria

Milling, Amanda

Mills, Nigel

Milton, rh Anne

Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew

Mordaunt, Penny

Morgan, rh Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Morton, Wendy

Mowat, David

Mundell, rh David

Murray, Mrs Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

Offord, Dr Matthew

Opperman, Guy

Parish, Neil

Patel, rh Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, rh Mike

Penrose, John

Percy, Andrew

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Philp, Chris

Pickles, rh Sir Eric

Pincher, Christopher

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Pow, Rebecca

Prentis, Victoria

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pritchard, Mark

Pursglove, Tom

Quin, Jeremy

Quince, Will

Raab, Mr Dominic

Redwood, rh John

Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Robinson, Mary

Rosindell, Andrew

Rudd, rh Amber

Rutley, David

Sandbach, Antoinette

Scully, Paul

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Shelbrooke, Alec

Simpson, rh Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Royston

Soames, rh Sir Nicholas

Solloway, Amanda

Soubry, rh Anna

Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline

Spencer, Mark

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Stride, Mel

Stuart, Graham

Sturdy, Julian

Sunak, Rishi

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Thomas, Derek

Throup, Maggie

Timpson, Edward

Tolhurst, Kelly

Tomlinson, Justin

Tomlinson, Michael

Tracey, Craig

Tredinnick, David

Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie

Truss, rh Elizabeth

Tugendhat, Tom

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, rh Mr Andrew

Vaizey, Mr Edward

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Warburton, David

Warman, Matt

Watkinson, Dame Angela

Wharton, James

Whately, Helen

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittaker, Craig

Whittingdale, rh Mr John

Wiggin, Bill

Williams, Craig

Williamson, rh Gavin

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Wood, Mike

Wragg, William

Wright, rh Jeremy

Zahawi, Nadhim

Tellers for the Noes:

Sarah Newton

and

Simon Kirby

Question accordingly negatived.

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Schedule 2

Further provision about social housing rents

Amendment made: 1, page 30, line 17, leave out “in which the tenancy begins” and insert

“falling after the beginning of the tenancy”.—

(Guy Opperman.)

This amendment makes clear that, where a tenancy begins after part of a relevant year has elapsed, the part of the year in question is the part after the tenancy begins.

Third Reading

6.27 pm

Priti Patel: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The Bill, alongside other measures, including the national living wage and the increase in the personal allowance for income tax, will ensure that the welfare

27 Oct 2015 : Column 303

system is fair to taxpayers while supporting the most vulnerable. It will help ensure that work always pays more than life on benefits. It will continue to build an economy based on higher pay, lower taxes and lower welfare.

Ian Lavery: As a result of these measures, people receiving family tax credits will lose up to £1,300 per annum and 200,000 more children will be pushed into poverty. Can the Minister explain how that is fair?

Priti Patel: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to respond once again on that issue and to make the case that, first, it pays to be in work, and secondly, through our package of measures, including the national living wage, the increase in the personal allowance and the extra support for tax-free childcare, families will be supported through the changes we are making. That contrasts with the system we inherited from Labour in 2010, which was not fair to the hard-working taxpayers who paid for it, and certainly did not support people trapped in a system of welfare, with no hope for a brighter future. That is why we are continuing to reform welfare so that work pays in the United Kingdom.

After 13 years in government, Labour left a welfare system that failed to reward work. Between 1997 and 2010, spending on tax credits increased by 335%, compared with an increase in average earnings of just 30% over the same period. Despite all the spending, 1.4 million people spent most of the last decade under Labour trapped in out-of-work benefits. [Interruption.] That is not a ridiculous point to make. Over the same period, the number of households in which no member had ever worked nearly doubled and in-work poverty rose, yet Labour has opposed every decision we have taken to fix the welfare system and support people off welfare and into work.

Our welfare reforms are focused on transforming lives by helping people to find and keep work. We are focused on boosting employment and ensuring fairness and affordability, while supporting the most vulnerable, and on making sure that people on benefits face the same choices as those not on benefits and in work. Over the past five years, 2 million more people have entered employment, while 2.3 million people are now in apprenticeships and the number of workless households is at a record low—down by more than 680,000 since 2010. This was achieved in the last Parliament, when welfare spending increased at the lowest rate since the creation of the modern welfare system.

Mr Burrowes: The Bill delivers on our ambitious manifesto commitment to halve the disability employment gap, but we need to be held to account for the progress we make, so will the Minister outline how, through the reporting mechanisms in the Bill, we can show we are delivering on that commitment and build on the good progress we have already made in helping over 200,000 more disabled people into work?

Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is right about the Government’s clear desire to support more disabled people into employment, and as we discussed in Committee, we will strive continuously to fulfil that commitment. I can assure him that in everything we do, including

27 Oct 2015 : Column 304

through the £100 million of investment to help people with disabilities and health conditions—something that Labour did not do in government—we will share information with the public and report back to the country on our progress. The Government stand by the principle of encouraging and rewarding work, and the Bill builds on that success.

Naturally, we want more people to have the dignity of a job, the pride that comes with earning a pay packet and, importantly, all the wider advantages that come with employment. All those who want to enter employment and contribute to the growth of our economy should be supported to do so, which is why we are committed to full employment. The Bill will support that commitment with a statutory duty to report on our progress towards full employment and our ambition to deliver 3 million new apprenticeships. In addition, it will put in place a statutory duty to report on our progress in supporting troubled families with multiple, highly complex problems, including in helping them to move closer to work. It will encourage parents into work and support those trapped on benefits without the opportunity to move into work, such as those with health conditions or disabilities in particular. As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) rightly highlighted, we will support them into work.

As a one nation Government, we believe that everyone in the country should have the chance to benefit from the security and sense of purpose that comes from being in work. Work provides purpose, responsibility and, in particular, role models for children, yet getting people into work is about more than earning a salary. Growing evidence shows that work can help people to remain healthy and help to promote recovery where somebody falls ill. It is right, therefore, that we look at how the system supports people with health conditions into work. We know that 61% of those in the work-related activity group want to work, but only 1% come off benefits each month. The system has failed them, and financial disincentives have left them trapped on benefits.

As we discussed in Committee and on Report, the changes in the Bill will apply to new ESA claims and universal credit from April 2017. This will enable us to provide significant new funding for additional support to help claimants with health conditions and disabilities into work and to transform people’s lives. Furthermore, we are providing £60 million of funding in 2017, which will increase to £100 million a year by 2020. That will be direct support to get people into work and provide new employment opportunities for those who want to work but have been unable to do so. We recognise the long-term conditions that some people face and will support them back into work.

Jeremy Lefroy: That help into work is absolutely vital, but what would the Minister say about those who have been in the work-related activity group for one or two years, or perhaps even longer, and who are unable to get back into work, however hard they try? New claimants will not have that work-related activity group component.

Priti Patel: We recognise that there are people who cannot work, as a result of illness, and they will be in the support group. They will absolutely be supported in that group, as is right and proper.

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It is our responsibility to ensure that the welfare system is affordable and sustainable. Those on the Opposition Benches who oppose our making difficult decisions on welfare must say what they would cut or which taxes they would put up to pay for their proposals. The Bill will correct many of the unaffordable and disproportionate increases in benefits compared with earnings by freezing most working-age benefits. As we have said throughout the passage of the Bill, this will protect taxpayers from the cost of subsidising increasing social housing rents through housing benefit. Those rents have climbed by 20% since 2010, but we will now act to reduce them by 1% a year for the next four years.

The Bill will continue to restore fairness to the system. We do not think it is fair that someone on benefits should receive more than working households earn, and 77% of the public agree. The benefit cap reintroduced fairness. Reducing the benefit cap to £20,000—and to £23,000 in Greater London—reinforces and strengthens that message. The new cap better aligns the level with the circumstances of hard-working families across the country.

Paul Scully: Does the Minister agree that, as well as providing a fairer deal for the taxpayer and introducing a fairer, more sustainable system in order to help to pay off the deficit, this programme will help to encourage, nudge and support people back into work? Is that not better than just wringing our hands?

Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. That is the whole purpose of what we have been doing through our welfare reforms. We are putting people first and providing the support they need to get back into work, in contrast to what we saw during the 13 years of the Labour Government, when people were trapped on benefits in a cycle of dependency, and trapped in poverty while having opportunities denied to them.

This Government are committed to working to eliminate child poverty and to improving life chances. Our new approach focuses on transforming lives, which is what the Labour Government failed to do through their arbitrary measures on poverty. We will tackle the root causes of poverty rather than focusing on the symptoms, as existing measures do. We saw the previous Labour Government’s pursuit of short-term, narrow and expensive policy solutions that attempted to lift incomes above an arbitrary line. They increased welfare spending by 60% in real terms—[Interruption.] That is a fact. They increased spending in an attempt to chase that moving poverty line, without driving any sustainable improvements in children’s lives.

In contrast, the Bill will place a duty on the Government to report annually on the key measures of worklessness and educational attainment. In these new life chances measures, we will focus on the root causes of poverty, rather than on the symptoms. That approach has been seen to fail—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) can shout all she wants, but these new measures will drive real actions and make the biggest difference to disadvantaged children now and in the future. We have also committed to publishing a life chances strategy—[Interruption.] What is embarrassing is that during 13 years, the Labour Government systematically failed to deal with the root causes of poverty or to change people’s lives by getting them back into work.

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Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): Will the Minister give way?

Priti Patel: I will not give way.

We are committed to publishing a life chances strategy, which will set out a wider set of measures on the root causes of poverty such as family breakdown and the problems of debt, drug addiction and alcohol dependency. We will report to the House on those measures annually. We are absolutely committed to protecting the most vulnerable in society, and the Bill will continue to ensure that the welfare system will support the elderly, the vulnerable and disabled people. We are exempting pensioner benefits, and benefits relating to the additional costs of disability, from the freeze on working-age benefits. We are also exempting the most disabled people from the benefit cap.

I would like to thank all Members on both sides of the House for their contributions on the Bill and on the other important issues that have been raised in our debates in Committee and on the Floor of the House. A number of amendments have been passed so that support for mortgage interest and social rented sector policies are delivered as intended. In the case of the social rents measure, we have been able to reflect comments made to the Government by the social housing sector. We have also added a clause that will enable the Government to recover the expenses they incur from administrating benefit diversions for the Motability scheme. As we agreed on Report, the wishes of the Welsh and Scottish Governments are now also reflected in the life chances measure.

This Bill will establish the principle of economic security, and will ensure that the welfare system is fair to taxpayers while continuing to build an economy based on higher pay, lower taxes and lower welfare. I commend the Bill to the House.

6.40 pm

Owen Smith: May I start by thanking everybody on the Opposition Benches for all the contributions they have made not just today, but during the passage of this enormously important Bill? May I also thank the Secretary of State for gracing us with his presence today? I would like to be able to thank the Minister for offering some detailed answers to the questions put to her throughout the Committee stage and today, but there were not many answers, so I will not be able to do that, I am afraid.

Labour will be opposing the Third Reading of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill. Combined with the other measures in the summer Budget, this package of tax credit and benefit reforms penalises millions of working families and will risk pushing hundreds of thousands of children into poverty. It is a cruel, pernicious Bill that breaks Tory promises in almost every clause and will hit more than 10 million families in Britain. It is also indiscriminate: it hits the young, the old, those unable to work and those working every hour they can.

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am pleased we will be opposing the Welfare Reform and Work Bill on Third Reading. Is not the real problem for the Government that their record so far on welfare reform has been entirely counterproductive? The facts

27 Oct 2015 : Column 307

speak for themselves: on this Government’s watch welfare bills have shot through the roof. They have cut welfare, but the bills have gone up.

Owen Smith: This is the first Government who have ever spent more than £1 trillion in a Parliament on social security. That is an extraordinary rise, and it has happened on the watch of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.

In this Bill we are seeing the Government break their promises repeatedly. They are breaking their promises to older people, for example. Before the election, the Conservatives’ manifesto said they would “maintain all pensioner benefits”, but after the election it appears that there is a different story. Some senior Conservatives have talked about this being a “great opportunity” for deep cuts to pensioner benefits. The Minister for Community and Social Care said that pensioner benefits should not be cut immediately, but that raises the question: when are they going to cut them?

The answer appears to be that the Government are cutting pensioner benefits now, in this Bill, because 70,000 pensioners are being hit by more than £1,000 a year through the changes to support for mortgage interest. That support is a vital lifeline for many, but through this Bill the Government are chipping away at pensioner benefits and charging a 2.9% interest rate—profiteering from pensioners. By refusing our amendment 24, the Conservative party is breaking its promise to our pensioners. We will act as the watchdog for our older people on that, as we will on pensioner freedoms. A scathing report from the Work and Pensions Committee has warned that the next great mis-selling scandal will be coming soon, after the Tories introduced pension freedoms. We will be watching that, as we are watching tonight.

Just as with older people, the Conservative Government are tonight letting down young people and our children. Before the election the Conservative manifesto spoke of

“boosting the self-esteem of young people”,

but after the election the Government are failing our children, failing young people and failing the next generation.

This Bill will push 600,000 children into poverty over the course of the Parliament while fiddling the figures and hiding the Government’s shame by abolishing the child poverty target. It is a scandal that any Government can seek to withdraw income—the money people have—from a measure of poverty. If it were not so disgraceful, it would be laughable. They are stripping housing benefit away from 18 to 21-year-olds, patronising our young people with “earn or learn” boot camps and introducing a so-called living wage that kicks in only when people are 25, and the Business Minister is running down young people, saying that they do not deserve a living wage because they are not as productive.

What about the Tory promises to the sick and disabled people of Britain? Before the election the Tory manifesto said that the Conservatives would

“aim to halve the disability employment gap: we will transform policy…so that hundreds of thousands more disabled people who can and want to be in work find employment.”

But what is the truth? After the election, they are cutting support for sick and disabled people. Half a million people in the ESA WRAG are set to lose

27 Oct 2015 : Column 308

£1,500 a year. That will reduce the likelihood of a return to work, increase the number of long-term unemployed and act as a work penalty for sick or disabled people seeking to get back into work.

Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I was told today by Homeless Link that 50% of the charities providing specialist housing services say they will be forced to close services within one to five years because of the changes in the rent arrangements for housing associations and housing benefits. Does my hon. Friend know what will happen to the vulnerable who depend on those services?

Owen Smith: I suspect that their lot will be far worse, as with so many of the groups that I am talking about tonight. We know that young people, older people, disabled people and vulnerable people in our communities are going to be worse off under the Tories, because they always are.

Mr Burrowes: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Owen Smith: What about working families, the very group that this Tory party chooses to try to speak for? Before the election, the Tories said they would not cut tax credits. The Justice Secretary said:

“We’re going to freeze them for two years, we are not going to cut them.”

That was the promise. We know the truth. After the election, the Government are stripping £1,300 out of the pockets of 3.5 million working families—a 10% cut in the incomes of working families, putting an effective 93% tax rate on low and middle-income workers and imposing a work penalty on those families.

Mr Burrowes: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Hon. Members: Give way!

Owen Smith: I had not heard the hon. Gentleman. He needs to speak up. I give way to him.

Mr Burrowes: The hon. Gentleman is very kind. Will he speak up, loud and clear? He says that he and his party will oppose the Bill, so what are their alternatives? How would they meet the £12 billion savings package? What parts of it will they accept, and what are their alternatives? We want to know the basis of their opposition.

Owen Smith: I could, of course, refer, as I have done repeatedly, to not cutting inheritance tax for people passing on million-pound houses; I could talk about not introducing the millionaires’ tax cut; I could talk about clamping down on tax avoidance and evasion. But the real question is for the working families in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, thousands of whom are going to see 10% of their income carved away at the stroke of a pen, in a letter arriving just before Christmas. It is a disgrace what this Government are doing. We are clear that we are opposing it tonight and will continue to oppose it. Asking working mothers to shoulder 70% of the cuts is no way for any Government to continue.

This Bill is a litany of broken promises. The risk of job loss, sickness, bereavement or retirement faces all of us at some point, yet this is a Tory bid to undermine the

27 Oct 2015 : Column 309

basic case for support and security for individuals through the collective pooling of risk. The Bill is a naked attempt to turn people against one another, in order to undermine any concept of a safety net—young against old, disabled people against non-disabled people, those in work against those looking for work.

The Opposition will not play that game. We are not interested in those divisive Tory tactics. We all want to bring down the welfare bill by making work pay, getting the homes we need built, bringing down unemployment and growing our economy, helping our foundation industries, such as the steel industry, which is being abandoned by the Government—[Interruption.]

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Mr Bacon, you are getting carried away. That is not like you. You are usually a man who wants to hear both sides of the argument. Don’t spoil it tonight.

Owen Smith: I am very grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

The Tories faced a humiliating and deserved defeat last night in the House of Lords, in part due to their failure to outline where cuts will fall and being less than open about their intentions. Just like their cuts to tax credits, this Bill breaks the Conservatives’ manifesto promises—pledges to protect pensioners, to support the young, to help the disabled into work and to back working families. This is a cruel Bill that shows that the Tory manifesto was not worth the paper it was printed on. It penalises children, takes money from low and middle-income workers, drives families from their homes, punishes disabled people and will push hundreds of thousands of children into poverty. We will oppose it tonight.

6.50 pm

Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con): It was a pleasure to serve on the Public Bill Committee along with hon. Members from both sides of the House who I can see in the Chamber. I sat through many sittings of the Committee, listening intently to all that was said, and I simply fail to recognise a lot of what the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said about what the Bill will do. I do not know how much of the Committee he sat through.

We have made great progress on the economy since 2010, and it is worth recording some facts. I stress that they are facts. Employment is now at a record high of more than 31 million, up more than 2 million since 2010. That represents a record employment rate of 73%. I am always proud to talk about my constituency of North Devon, and the JSA claimant rate there is just 0.9%, a record low. Unemployment is almost back to its pre-recession levels—a recession, let us remember, caused by the Labour party—[Interruption.] The number of workless households is at a record low as well, down nearly 700,000—[Interruption.]

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I expect the same courtesy from Opposition Members as I expected from Government Members.

Peter Heaton-Jones: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. They do not want to hear the truth, that is the problem.

27 Oct 2015 : Column 310

Our welfare reforms over the last Parliament, every one of which was designed with the aim of supporting those who are able to work in getting closer to employment, were undoubtedly part of achieving the success story I have cited.

Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): Is not the difficulty that the Labour party, in its last year in government, borrowed £150 billion, introduced a tax credit system that started at £4.5 billion and ended at £30 billion, maxed out not only the taxpayers’ credit cards but their children’s and grandchildren’s credit cards, and chained workers to a lower minimum wage instead of a much higher national living wage?

Peter Heaton-Jones: I agree with the powerful point that my hon. Friend makes. In fact, I am about to talk about the benefits cap that the Bill quite rightly introduces. The New Statesman, by any measure the house journal of the Labour party, states:

“Most voters regard a cap of £26,000 as unacceptably high and the move draws a sharp new dividing line with Labour. By pledging to use the money saved to fund apprenticeships, Cameron sends out the message that the Tories support work, not welfare.”

Alex Cunningham rose

Peter Heaton-Jones: I will not give way, as we are short of time.

Let us look at what happened when the £26,000 cap was introduced: 16,000 households moved back into work, and capped households are 41% more likely to move into work. When asked, 38% of those who had been capped said that they were doing all they could to find more work and being supported by the Government in doing so. Those are important statistics that we must not forget.

I want to talk briefly, if I may, about some of the measures in the Bill on the help that will be given to people with disabilities. I am pleased to see on the Front Bench my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People. An SNP Member asked earlier where he was, and at that very moment he was in Westminster Hall speaking up for the people he represents, so we will take no lessons about that. I am working with the Minister to hold a Disability Confident event in my own seat of North Devon, because I want to ensure that people with disabilities can get closer to employment.

I am aware of the time, so I will conclude my comments. [Hon. Members: “More!”] I am very happy to provide more. We are moving from a high welfare, high tax, low wage economy to a society where work pays, where people earn more, and where the Government will help them to keep more of the money that they earn. That is the purpose of the Bill. That is why it is important that the House passes it; why it is right for the country; and why we should all support it in the Lobby tonight.

6.55 pm

Dr Eilidh Whiteford: I will keep my remarks brief. This Bill has been the centrepiece of the Government’s austerity agenda, but the Government’s package of proposals was holed below the waterline by the vote in the House of Lords yesterday. The Bill’s measures are characterised by their arbitrary nature, by a total lack of evidence that they will achieve their intended aims

27 Oct 2015 : Column 311

and, above all, by the fact that low-income working households and the sick and disabled have been put on the frontline and are shouldering a wholly disproportionate share of the cuts.

Cuts to tax credits are at the heart of that agenda, with 7 million families set to lose an average of £1,300 each.

Alex Cunningham rose

Dr Whiteford: I will not give way, because time is very short.

Those measures will drive disincentives to work and will compromise economic recovery. Above all, they will push hundreds of thousands of bairns into poverty. The benefit cap fails to tackle the underlying issue of an out-of-control housing market and a lack of affordable housing, and it hits those living in our most expensive urban areas. Cuts to employment and support allowance penalise people with serious and long-term illnesses and disabilities, and, to add insult to injury, stigmatise people for their own poor health. On sanctions, we have heard that the Government’s U-turn fails to address the need for a proper review of the sanctions regime. Those are the wrong choices to make. There is a responsible path to deficit reduction. There is a responsible alternative to austerity, and this Bill is not it.

However, we did not get a chance to debate the amendments in the third group this afternoon, so I wish to put it on the record that I welcome Government amendments 2 to 16, which take into account the concerns raised by the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations.

This is a deeply regressive Bill. It harms low-income households and makes disadvantaged people carry the can of the Government’s economic failure. The SNP will oppose the Bill tonight.

6.57 pm

Paul Scully: I regret the fact that, on Report, we have spent a lot of time—about a third of it—on yesterday’s debate. As important as that issue is, it has meant that we did not get to speak about our measures for full employment and for improving people’s life chances, especially with our troubled families programme. What I do not regret—in fact, I positively welcome it—is the clear and direct action taken by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the range of Ministers who have worked incredibly hard so that Britain can deliver this Bill tonight.

The Bill means that, when we are looking at delivering a welfare programme, people who are in work and paying their tax will have the same expectations on housing and other choices when they have children as those who are not in work. The Bill is also for our children. We must pay off the deficit and, ultimately, our debt. By saving £12 billion through our overall package, we will be able to reduce the deficit significantly. Most of all, the Bill is about helping those who are most in need of our support. We have heard a lot of empty rhetoric from the Opposition parties, but what the Secretary of State and his Ministers have done in this Bill is to look at the underlying problems and at the underlying situation so that we can push people towards

27 Oct 2015 : Column 312

work. We will nudge, support and help them back into full employment. I very much welcome this transformational Bill.

6.59 pm

Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Like other Opposition Members, I will oppose the Bill, because it does not meet the claims that the Government are making for it about making work pay. It will penalise people in work. Most of all, it will penalise families. It will penalise not just work but parenthood. The Minister told us that it is about making sure that families have to make the same choices as others. However, the two-child rule will not apply to childcare payments, and that means that up to £2,000 per child will be paid to relatively well-off people in employment, who will continue to get those payments for as many as children as they want. Only poorer families will be penalised by the two-child rule. That is just one of the injustices and inequities for which—

7 pm

Debate interrupted (Programme order, this day).

The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The House divided:

Ayes 317, Noes 285.

Division No. 98]

[

7 pm

AYES

Adams, Nigel

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Allan, Lucy

Allen, Heidi

Amess, Sir David

Andrew, Stuart

Ansell, Caroline

Argar, Edward

Atkins, Victoria

Bacon, Mr Richard

Baker, Mr Steve

Baldwin, Harriett

Barclay, Stephen

Baron, Mr John

Barwell, Gavin

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Benyon, Richard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Berry, James

Bingham, Andrew

Blackman, Bob

Blackwood, Nicola

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Borwick, Victoria

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brazier, Mr Julian

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brokenshire, rh James

Bruce, Fiona

Buckland, Robert

Burns, rh Sir Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burt, rh Alistair

Cairns, Alun

Carmichael, Neil

Cartlidge, James

Cash, Sir William

Caulfield, Maria

Chalk, Alex

Chishti, Rehman

Chope, Mr Christopher

Churchill, Jo

Clark, rh Greg

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Cleverly, James

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Costa, Alberto

Cox, Mr Geoffrey

Crabb, rh Stephen

Crouch, Tracey

Davies, Byron

Davies, Chris

Davies, David T. C.

Davies, Glyn

Davies, Dr James

Davies, Mims

Davies, Philip

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Donelan, Michelle

Dorries, Nadine

Double, Steve

Dowden, Oliver

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Drummond, Mrs Flick

Duddridge, James

Duncan, rh Sir Alan

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Mr Nigel

Evennett, rh Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, rh Michael

Fernandes, Suella

Field, rh Mark

Foster, Kevin

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Frazer, Lucy

Freeman, George

Freer, Mike

Fuller, Richard

Fysh, Marcus

Gale, Sir Roger

Garnier, rh Sir Edward

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

Ghani, Nusrat

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goldsmith, Zac

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Gove, rh Michael

Graham, Richard

Grant, Mrs Helen

Gray, Mr James

Grayling, rh Chris

Green, Chris

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Grieve, rh Mr Dominic

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Halfon, rh Robert

Hall, Luke

Hammond, rh Mr Philip

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, rh Matthew

Hands, rh Greg

Harper, rh Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, rh Mr John

Heald, Sir Oliver

Heappey, James

Heaton-Harris, Chris

Heaton-Jones, Peter

Henderson, Gordon

Herbert, rh Nick

Hinds, Damian

Hoare, Simon

Hollingbery, George

Hollinrake, Kevin

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Holloway, Mr Adam

Hopkins, Kris

Howarth, Sir Gerald

Howell, John

Howlett, Ben

Huddleston, Nigel

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hurd, Mr Nick

Jackson, Mr Stewart

James, Margot

Javid, rh Sajid

Jayawardena, Mr Ranil

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Jenkyns, Andrea

Jenrick, Robert

Johnson, Boris

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, rh Mr David

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kennedy, Seema

Knight, rh Sir Greg

Knight, Julian

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Lancaster, Mark

Latham, Pauline

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Dr Phillip

Lefroy, Jeremy

Leigh, Sir Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lopresti, Jack

Lord, Jonathan

Loughton, Tim

Lumley, Karen

Mackinlay, Craig

Mackintosh, David

Main, Mrs Anne

Mak, Mr Alan

Malthouse, Kit

Mann, Scott

Mathias, Dr Tania

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

McPartland, Stephen

Menzies, Mark

Mercer, Johnny

Merriman, Huw

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Mrs Maria

Milling, Amanda

Mills, Nigel

Milton, rh Anne

Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew

Mordaunt, Penny

Morgan, rh Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Morton, Wendy

Mowat, David

Mundell, rh David

Murray, Mrs Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

Offord, Dr Matthew

Opperman, Guy

Parish, Neil

Patel, rh Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, rh Mike

Penrose, John

Percy, Andrew

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Philp, Chris

Pickles, rh Sir Eric

Pincher, Christopher

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Pow, Rebecca

Prentis, Victoria

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pritchard, Mark

Pursglove, Tom

Quin, Jeremy

Quince, Will

Raab, Mr Dominic

Redwood, rh John

Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Robinson, Mary

Rosindell, Andrew

Rudd, rh Amber

Rutley, David

Sandbach, Antoinette

Scully, Paul

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Shelbrooke, Alec

Simpson, rh Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Royston

Soames, rh Sir Nicholas

Solloway, Amanda

Soubry, rh Anna

Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline

Spencer, Mark

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Stride, Mel

Stuart, Graham

Sturdy, Julian

Sunak, Rishi

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Thomas, Derek

Throup, Maggie

Timpson, Edward

Tolhurst, Kelly

Tomlinson, Justin

Tomlinson, Michael

Tracey, Craig

Tredinnick, David

Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie

Truss, rh Elizabeth

Tugendhat, Tom

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, rh Mr Andrew

Vaizey, Mr Edward

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Warburton, David

Warman, Matt

Watkinson, Dame Angela

Wharton, James

Whately, Helen

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittaker, Craig

Whittingdale, rh Mr John

Wiggin, Bill

Williams, Craig

Williamson, rh Gavin

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Wood, Mike

Wragg, William

Wright, rh Jeremy

Zahawi, Nadhim

Tellers for the Ayes:

Sarah Newton

and

Simon Kirby

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Abrahams, Debbie

Ahmed-Sheikh, Ms Tasmina

Alexander, Heidi

Ali, Rushanara

Allen, Mr Graham

Anderson, Mr David

Arkless, Richard

Ashworth, Jonathan

Austin, Ian

Bailey, Mr Adrian

Bardell, Hannah

Barron, rh Kevin

Beckett, rh Margaret

Black, Mhairi

Blackford, Ian

Blackman, Kirsty

Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta

Blenkinsop, Tom

Blomfield, Paul

Boswell, Philip

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brake, rh Tom

Brennan, Kevin

Brock, Deidre

Brown, Alan

Brown, Lyn

Brown, rh Mr Nicholas

Bryant, Chris

Buck, Ms Karen

Burden, Richard

Burgon, Richard

Burnham, rh Andy

Butler, Dawn

Byrne, rh Liam

Cadbury, Ruth

Cameron, Dr Lisa

Campbell, rh Mr Alan

Campbell, Mr Ronnie

Champion, Sarah

Chapman, Douglas

Chapman, Jenny

Cherry, Joanna

Clwyd, rh Ann

Coaker, Vernon

Coffey, Ann

Cooper, Julie

Cooper, rh Yvette

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cowan, Ronnie

Cox, Jo

Coyle, Neil

Crausby, Mr David

Crawley, Angela

Creagh, Mary

Creasy, Stella

Cruddas, Jon

Cryer, John

Cummins, Judith

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Mr Jim

Dakin, Nic

David, Wayne

Davies, Geraint

Day, Martyn

De Piero, Gloria

Docherty, Martin John

Dodds, rh Mr Nigel

Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.

Donaldson, Stuart Blair

Doughty, Stephen

Dowd, Jim

Dowd, Peter

Dromey, Jack

Dugher, Michael

Durkan, Mark

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eagle, Maria

Edwards, Jonathan

Efford, Clive

Elliott, Julie

Elliott, Tom

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Esterson, Bill

Evans, Chris

Farrelly, Paul

Fellows, Marion

Ferrier, Margaret

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Flello, Robert

Fletcher, Colleen

Flint, rh Caroline

Flynn, Paul

Fovargue, Yvonne

Gapes, Mike

Gardiner, Barry

Gethins, Stephen

Gibson, Patricia

Glass, Pat

Glindon, Mary

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goodman, Helen

Grady, Patrick

Grant, Peter

Gray, Neil

Green, Kate

Greenwood, Lilian

Greenwood, Margaret

Griffith, Nia

Gwynne, Andrew

Haigh, Louise

Hamilton, Fabian

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Harpham, Harry

Harris, Carolyn

Hayes, Helen

Hayman, Sue

Healey, rh John

Hendrick, Mr Mark

Hendry, Drew

Hepburn, Mr Stephen

Hermon, Lady

Hillier, Meg

Hodge, rh Dame Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hoey, Kate

Hollern, Kate

Hopkins, Kelvin

Hosie, Stewart

Howarth, rh Mr George

Hunt, Tristram

Huq, Dr Rupa

Hussain, Imran

Irranca-Davies, Huw

Jarvis, Dan

Johnson, rh Alan

Johnson, Diana

Jones, Gerald

Jones, Graham

Jones, Helen

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Susan Elan

Kane, Mike

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Keeley, Barbara

Kendall, Liz

Kerevan, George

Kerr, Calum

Kinahan, Danny

Kinnock, Stephen

Kyle, Peter

Lamb, rh Norman

Lavery, Ian

Law, Chris

Leslie, Chris

Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma

Lewis, Clive

Lewis, Mr Ivan

Long Bailey, Rebecca

Lucas, Caroline

Lucas, Ian C.

Lynch, Holly

MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan

Madders, Justin

Mahmood, Shabana

Malhotra, Seema

Mann, John

Marris, Rob

Marsden, Mr Gordon

Maskell, Rachael

Matheson, Christian

Mc Nally, John

McCabe, Steve

McCaig, Callum

McCarthy, Kerry

McDonagh, Siobhain

McDonald, Andy

McDonald, Stewart Malcolm

McDonald, Stuart C.

McDonnell, John

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGarry, Natalie

McGinn, Conor

McGovern, Alison

McInnes, Liz

McKinnell, Catherine

McLaughlin, Anne

Meale, Sir Alan

Mearns, Ian

Miliband, rh Edward

Monaghan, Carol

Monaghan, Dr Paul

Morden, Jessica

Morris, Grahame M.

Mulholland, Greg

Mullin, Roger

Murray, Ian

Nandy, Lisa

Newlands, Gavin

Nicolson, John

O'Hara, Brendan

Onn, Melanie

Onwurah, Chi

Osamor, Kate

Oswald, Kirsten

Paterson, Steven

Pearce, Teresa

Pennycook, Matthew

Perkins, Toby

Phillips, Jess

Phillipson, Bridget

Pound, Stephen

Powell, Lucy

Pugh, John

Qureshi, Yasmin

Reed, Mr Jamie

Reed, Mr Steve

Rees, Christina

Reynolds, Emma

Reynolds, Jonathan

Rimmer, Marie

Ritchie, Ms Margaret

Robertson, rh Angus

Robinson, Gavin

Robinson, Mr Geoffrey

Rotheram, Steve

Ryan, rh Joan

Salmond, rh Alex

Saville Roberts, Liz

Shah, Naz

Shannon, Jim

Sharma, Mr Virendra

Sheppard, Tommy

Sherriff, Paula

Shuker, Mr Gavin

Siddiq, Tulip

Simpson, David

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Slaughter, Andy

Smeeth, Ruth

Smith, rh Mr Andrew

Smith, Angela

Smith, Cat

Smith, Jeff

Smith, Nick

Smith, Owen

Smyth, Karin

Starmer, Keir

Stephens, Chris

Stevens, Jo

Streeting, Wes

Stringer, Graham

Stuart, rh Ms Gisela

Tami, Mark

Thewliss, Alison

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Thomas-Symonds, Nick

Thompson, Owen

Thomson, Michelle

Thornberry, Emily

Timms, rh Stephen

Trickett, Jon

Turley, Anna

Turner, Karl

Twigg, Derek

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Vaz, Valerie

Watson, Mr Tom

Weir, Mike

West, Catherine

Whiteford, Dr Eilidh

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Whitford, Dr Philippa

Williams, Hywel

Williams, Mr Mark

Wilson, Corri

Wilson, Phil

Wilson, Sammy

Winnick, Mr David

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Wishart, Pete

Woodcock, John

Wright, Mr Iain

Zeichner, Daniel

Tellers for the Noes:

Vicky Foxcroft

and

Angela Rayner

Question accordingly agreed to.

27 Oct 2015 : Column 313

27 Oct 2015 : Column 314

27 Oct 2015 : Column 315

27 Oct 2015 : Column 316

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Business without Debate

electoral Commission

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, 15 October, and Standing Order No. 118(6)),

That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will reappoint Anna Carragher as an Electoral Commissioner with effect from 1 January 2016 to 31 December 2020.—(Charlie Elphicke.)

Question agreed to.

27 Oct 2015 : Column 317

Cardiac Screening: Young People

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Charlie Elphicke.)

7.13 pm

Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con): I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to discuss the crucial matter of cardiac screening for our young people. I am delighted to be able to speak tonight because I did the 10-mile Great South Run on Sunday for CRY—Cardiac Risk in the Young—which raises awareness, supports screening and research, and assists bereaved families affected by cardiac risk in the young. You can look at its website to see its impact on cardiac arrest in our young people.

Cardiac arrest is a preventable and silent killer. There are often no symptoms and there is regularly no warning. At least 12 young people under the age of 35 die unexpectedly every week of the year from a heart condition that they did not know they had. I and various campaign organisations involved in tackling this issue believe that the number may be even higher. Perhaps even as many as 20 young people a week are lost by their families. Some 80% of those deaths occur with absolutely no prior symptoms.

Sudden cardiac death is thought to be caused by a heart condition, and young sudden adult death syndrome occurs when a cardiac pathologist is unable to find a definite cause of death. Thankfully, coroners are becoming more willing to name sudden arrhythmic death syndrome as the cause of death, which is a positive step forward, but we must continue to push for greater awareness.

My constituents, Graham and Anne Hunter, lost their beautiful daughter, Claire, two years ago from sudden cardiac arrest. Claire was only 22 and was newly married to Andy. She was a trained accountant and a mature, beautiful girl with an exciting life ahead of her. She had no prior symptoms. She was in a spa on a hen weekend, relaxing with friends in a jacuzzi after a swim. She said that she felt hot and sick, and she sadly died from sudden cardiac arrest. It took a significant time for the ambulance to arrive. We and her family do not know whether, had the spa had a defibrillator, that would have saved her life.

Claire’s family have since been screened. Heart conditions have been found and preventive measures put in place by the excellent Southampton general hospital. Graham and Anne’s lovely daughter Claire was cruelly and tragically taken from them, and that terrible loss exemplifies what is happening to other families in every community and constituency each week. Graham and Anne are sitting in the Public Gallery listening to and watching this vital debate, and I pay tribute to them and to many other families across the country who have lost their precious children to such a cruel and sudden tragedy. Such losses are often preventable, which only makes them even more heart-breaking.

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Does she agree that this tragic condition seems to hit fit young people, such as my constituent Mr Philip Evans who was a family friend? He was a keen bodybuilder and he tragically died from this condition.

27 Oct 2015 : Column 318

Mims Davies: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are losing fit, young, capable, able and good people, and we must do something about it. We bring our children into the world. We school and train them, and above all we love them and get them ready for a future—our future. Economically, there is a case to do something, but the emotional case is priceless.

Screening has been proven to work. In Italy, screening is mandatory for all young people who are engaged in sport, and cases of young sudden cardiac death have fallen by 90%. In this country, free screening is provided only when a young death has occurred in the family, or through the work of Cardiac Risk in the Young and the help of affected families who fundraise for that cause.

Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. My constituent, Sam Wright, who was a very fit young man, died suddenly. His friend, Danielle West, has fundraised on behalf of CRY and secured enough money to screen all the sixth-formers at the school that Sam used to go to. Three of those sixth-formers have had further tests. I do not know the results of those tests, but three people who knew nothing may have a condition that can now be treated. My hon. Friend’s campaign is valuable and we should continue with it.

Mims Davies: I absolutely agree. The UK National Screening Committee has refused to make a comprehensive offer of heart screening for young people in the UK, which I think is a scandal.

Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I lost my own daughter three and a half years ago from sudden unexplained heart failure. I am a supporter of CRY, and I appeal to the Government to listen to what is being said in this debate. Many young people between 14 and 35 die suddenly from an unexplained cause, and that is a personal tragedy for the families and friends of those young people. I came to this debate unsure of whether I would be able to intervene, and it is a great grief and something that is with me all the time. I wish that people would take this issue more seriously.

Mims Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for such an eloquent and kind intervention. I am sorry for his loss. We think of all the children in this debate.

How can it be right to wait for tragedy to strike before taking action? That is truly unacceptable. I urge the Minister tonight to review the policy and to reverse it. As with many other preventable illnesses, screening needs to be part of the standard healthcare provided to our young people. Screening has more than just general benefits: it helps to prevent future diseases. Heart UK estimates that if 50% of people with the potential genetic condition known as familial hypercholesterolaemia or FH—a naturally occurring high cholesterol condition—were diagnosed and then treated, the NHS could save £1.7 million per year on treatment. Truly comprehensive heart screening is a good measure for now and a perfect insurance policy for the future.

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for this fantastic opportunity to highlight a major national issue. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) for his

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courage in intervening to talk about a clearly incredibly fraught moment, not only for him but for his whole family and all who share his grief.

In my constituency recently, a young man was playing football when he dropped dead. Junior Dian, who played for Tonbridge Angels, could have been saved by screening. We are pleased to say that the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) is working with the Premier League and other organisations to introduce screening for individuals across our country. I hope very much that we will all join her in urging sporting institutions, whether relating to football, rugby or cricket, to push for this opportunity to save young people. Sudden cardiac death hits every part of society. My very dear friend’s brother, the late Earl of Shaftsbury, died in his sleep, aged 30, in New York. This hits everyone: old, young, rich or poor. We can do better. We must do better.

Mims Davies: We need to do more on public defibrillators, too.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, we have done three things. First, schools have responded. I visited Regent House school just last week and there were 60 young people doing CPR testing—that was very positive. Secondly, we have first responders in Strangford, volunteers with a defibrillator. So far, they have had 64 call-outs in less than a year. Thirdly, the Henderson Group has purchased defibrillators for each of their shops in Northern Ireland. Those are three initiatives that can make a difference. I commend the hon. Lady for bringing this issue to the House.

Mims Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I think that is something we can absolutely pick up on. There are other ways we can reduce mortality at any age, young or old. We need to have more ready access to defibrillators and further CPR training.

Dr Tania Mathias (Twickenham) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that a teenager should not get a driving licence unless they have CPR training?

Mims Davies: I absolutely agree. That is a wonderful idea to make people aware, early on, about health intervention and what can be done through training.

Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend and Hampshire neighbour for giving way and I pay tribute to her for securing the debate. Will she join me in paying tribute to organisations such as my local parish council, which has gone out of its way to put its funds towards making defibrillators available not only in the local village hall but in the local village pub, too?

Mims Davies: Absolutely, and I thank my right hon. Friend. There is always a good reason to go the pub and that sounds like an excellent one.

Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way as I know this is a short debate. I pay tribute to her for securing the debate and for the passion she is showing in putting her case across.

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On defibrillators, will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating Solihull Lions in my constituency, which has just paid for 10 defibrillators in public places, and the cardiac nurses at Solihull hospital who, touched by the tragic case of young Miles Reid, 21, who dropped dead of a heart attack while playing football, paid for a defibrillator in Shirley Park? Will she join me in congratulating those groups and in understanding the importance of public defibrillators?

Mims Davies: I absolutely do. My hon. Friend makes a great point about communities coming together—sadly, always off the back of a tragedy. We could be on the front foot on this issue instead.

Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con): I, too, absolutely commend this debate. Every single one of us probably knows somebody who has dropped dead. My brother-in-law’s brother, a great college friend of mine, did so, and we all know such people. We are, in particular, encouraging our young children to get into sport big time, and it gets more and more intense. Every time they get selected, they have more sessions, more training and it becomes more high profile; I would urge that we get testing going for these young people. It is often the fit and sporty ones that seem to be affected. Does my hon. Friend agree we should do something for these particular type of students?

Mims Davies: Absolutely. Italy saw a 90% reduction when sporting people were properly targeted.

Portable defibrillators will help people with no medical training; they can provide immediate, first-instance help to all patients following a cardiac arrest. Survival decreases by 23% per minute. The UK Resuscitation Council asks for an AED—automated external defibrillator—to be present in any location where medical treatment is further than five minutes away. Clearly, that means pushing on with installing these crucial bits of equipment in every public building, and encouraging more businesses to have them.

I thank the Chancellor for listening to Graham and Anne Hunter from my constituency and to the British Heart Foundation. Some £1 million has been pledged for defibrillators for community centres and to ensure that schools are delivering CPR training awareness. This is a welcome step, but more can be done.

Mrs Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con): In my family’s case, my father died very young when I was two years old. I have had to go to my GP to ask to be monitored, and no suggestion has been made that my children should also be monitored, even though my grandfather also died young of what is clearly a potential genetic disorder. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister should consider how we can develop this across the national health service, thus ensuring that families are protected?

Mims Davies: If I did not know better, I would think that my hon. Friend was reading my speech. Action is needed on GP awareness. When there is an incident of sudden adult death syndrome, the family can be screened for free to look for potential causes. This is often because the conditions require a live and still beating heart for diagnosis, although problems are also often discovered through a process of screening for genetic hereditary conditions in families. It is up to GPs to

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ensure that they advise family members to get screened in these instances. I want to see far greater awareness among our practitioners of the huge benefits from screening. It is absolutely critical to fight to prevent these young mortalities.

So what do we want? First, MPs, campaigners and families want free screening for every 14-year-old to be checked for the key risk factors. Whether via schools, sports clubs or the NHS, we can find a way. Last week, at Fleming Park in Eastleigh, two youngsters were screened by CRY and found to be in urgent need of follow-up. Another screening was organised in Claire’s memory and was funded by local donations.

Secondly, we want more public access to defibrillators, and new local community buildings should, through planning, have one placed in sight. That is easily done. Thirdly, we want higher awareness among our among our general practitioners that hearts need checking at any age.

In conclusion, up and down the country every week, at least 12 young people are dying from sudden cardiac arrest—over 600 young people a year, and we have heard tonight that many MPs have experienced at least one incident in their family or their community. On 14 October, the Daily Mail reported that a family from Stoke-on-Trent lost a daughter in 2006 and now a son aged 17, after swimming on a recent holiday in Turkey. Each and every incident is a tragedy. These causes of death are conditions that can be picked up by screening. I do not believe that a health Minister is often told that we can relatively cheaply and surely prevent the deaths of thousands of our young people by taking some very easy steps. This evening, on behalf of many families, I ask the Minister to do just that.

7.29 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mims Davies) and all the other Members who have contributed to the debate for raising what is—as has been more than amply demonstrated—a serious and important issue. We have heard from Members who have suffered tragic losses, and I myself have lost a friend in similar circumstances. I thank all Members for bringing their experiences to the Chamber to inform our debate. Obviously, our sympathies are with the families who have been affected.

I suspect that some elements of my speech will not satisfy my hon. Friend, but I want to try to identify the areas in which I think we are making some progress, and also those in which some of the real difficulties lie. Many of them involve clinical challenges rather than political decisions.

I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to her constituents Graham and Anne Hunter, who have worked tirelessly to raise awareness of sudden adult death syndrome because of the personal tragedy that they suffered. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State met them in June 2013, along with the UK National Screening Committee’s secretariat and Public Health England’s director of screening programmes, Dr Anne Mackie.

Sadly, as we know, not everyone survives cardiac arrest, and 100,000 people die of heart disease annually in the United Kingdom. As my hon. Friend said, an estimated 400 to 500 cardiac deaths each year are

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unexplained, and most have a genetic basis. In some cases there is no definite cause of death, even after the heart has been examined by an expert cardiac pathologist. Most sudden deaths in people under 30 are caused by inherited cardiomyopathies and arrhythmias. The situation is very tragic.

My hon. Friend mentioned three possible solutions. The principal one was population screening, but she also mentioned defibrillators, the provision of testing and advice for the families of those who suffer a sudden cardiac arrest, and GP awareness. I shall try to touch on all those points, although time is slightly against me: I have only about 10 minutes.

I think that if population screening were easy and obvious, we would do it, but it is not easy or obvious, despite the compelling reasons why we would all want to respond to the challenge. Let me try to explain why. As many Members will know, screening programmes in England are set up on the advice of the UK National Screening Committee, so these are not political decisions. They are decisions based on the best currently available evidence and expert advice from those who are most qualified to provide it, and many factors are weighed in the balance. The evidence is drawn from the United Kingdom and from other countries around the world.

Earlier this year, the UK NSC carefully considered the evidence in favour of introducing cardiac screening for people between the ages of 12 and 39. They took account of, for instance, the fact that sudden cardiac death covers a range of extremely complex conditions which are very difficult to detect by means of screening. Although it is such an important health problem, the committee found little peer-reviewed evidence that would have enabled it to make an accurate assessment of the number of people affected.

There is no single test that can detect all the conditions involved, nor is it possible to say which abnormalities will lead to sudden cardiac death. Moreover—this applies to other kinds of screening, but it applies particularly in this context—there is currently a risk that a false positive or a false negative could result. There is a clear risk that a positive result could be given to someone who was not affected by these conditions, and we can all imagine some of the effects that that might have. Someone might worry unnecessarily about having a heart problem, and might refrain from exercise that would be beneficial for their health, or give up a promising career in sport. A false negative would also present significant challenges. It is possible to have a heart problem that a test will not pick up. Fabrice Muamba, for example, had several screening tests throughout his career which did not identify any problems, but we saw his sudden collapse on the pitch at White Hart Lane.

Telling someone they have a condition when they do not could cause unnecessary anxiety to everyone concerned, even though it might not affect them. That causes difficulties, as does telling someone they are in the clear when they are not. These are the difficult elements of decision making and evidence that our expert committees have to sift in coming to a conclusion and making a recommendation. In the review that has just taken place, no studies reporting on test performance, sensitivity or specificity were identified by academic evidence. It was therefore felt that it was not possible to recommend the use of such a test in a national programme.

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Another key test for screening is that once a problem has been detected, there must be something we can do about it, either by treating a condition or by helping someone to remain healthy. The conditions that lead to sudden cardiac death are poorly understood, and there is no evidence to guide clinicians as to what the treatment or lifestyle advice would be when a problem is found in a family member. That is not to say that in every circumstance people cannot give advice, but across a population-based screening programme it would not be possible to know what the advice would be for everyone screened. For some of the conditions implicated in sudden death there is no treatment. Delivering the message that someone has a condition is extremely difficult, but it is exacerbated where no known treatment is available. A person who tests positively will face significant dilemmas, and not just the ones I have touched on. Such dilemmas may involve ending a career they have mapped out for themselves or decisions about their family situation. They can also be penalised financially through higher insurance premiums.

On screening, the situation is extremely difficult. The evidence has been carefully weighed up recently, and we should introduce screening only when there is evidence that it can be effective. Overall, at this time, the UK NSC found insufficient evidence to support it. That position was supported by the British Cardiovascular Society, the national clinical director for heart disease in the NHS and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. They made that position clear in their responses to the public consultation. The difficulties were acknowledged even by Cardiac Risk in the Young, which, as many hon. Members have said, does wonderful work campaigning in this area. It acknowledged some of the concerns identified by the review, although I also accept that it took issue with some of the other matters raised in the conclusions.

This year’s decision by the UK NSC is not the end of the road in the consideration of screening for sudden cardiac death. The evidence is routinely reviewed every three years, but individuals and organisations can alert the committee at any time to any new peer-reviewed evidence published in the interval between regular reviews. It goes without saying that I will draw the committee’s attention to this excellent debate, how well supported it has been and the strength of feeling that has been expressed. Such a notification will be considered by the UK NSC, which can conduct an early update of a review in response.

Let me respond to the point that was made about Italy, because it has been raised before. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh mentioned the example of Italy’s introduction of screening for all children involved in organised sport. Although there is literature on the screening of young people participating in sport, the evidence is again mixed, and some of the outcomes have been questioned. We are keen to understand what is going on in Italy, but it has yet to share its national data on the screening programme. The Secretary of State wrote to his Italian counterpart to request these data in August 2013, following the meeting that I mentioned earlier. This has been chased up on a number of occasions but the data have not been forthcoming, to date. Obviously, I will write again after this debate to say that we would

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like to see the data, because they might be one example of data that could inform a future NSC evidence review. My hon. Friend and other hon. Members may also be interested to know that the Sports Minister and I spoke today to some of the major sports governing bodies and raised this important issue. They are very much aware of their responsibilities towards young athletes, and we had a very productive discussion about what they have already done and what more they are considering in this area.

Let me touch a little on the research that is going on, because I have mentioned that we do not know much about some of these conditions and do not have treatments for some of them. The National Institute for Health Research is funding research on early detection of asymptomatic cardiomyopathies through its biomedical research centres and units, including the genetic aspects of the condition. It is also supporting a project with partners, including Manchester United football club, to identify the healthy limits and wider benefits of exercise for young elite athletes, normal healthy children and children with congenital heart defects. There is some really interesting and important work going on, and some of the data will be used to improve screening protocols for cardiac abnormalities in young athletes. The evidence from that research will be provided to the UK NSC when it next reviews the evidence, or earlier if new evidence comes to light.

Let me touch on defibrillators in the remaining three minutes. Tonight we have heard some wonderful examples of local campaigns across the country, and I pay tribute to all the people involved in ensuring that we accelerate access to defibrillators. In the March Budget my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a £1 million fund to boost public provision of defibrillators in England and to support training in their use. That funding is now being administered by the British Heart Foundation.

Members of Parliament also have a role to play in that regard, for example if they think there are places where we need to have defibrillators. Many of them are in public buildings and sports grounds—I was discussing this with sports governing bodies only today—but they are of no use to wider communities when those buildings or grounds are closed. We can ask those questions on the back of debates such as this one, and I know that hon. Members are well placed to do that. The Hunter family, of course, have been extremely instrumental in making that change happen, and we pay tribute to them for that.

My hon. Friend also mentioned the importance of providing support to families of people who have suffered a sudden cardiac death and the need to ensure that GPs are aware of that. I make a commitment now to write to the Royal College of General Practitioners and draw its attention to the strength of feeling and the continuing concern that this might not be as well understood as it should be. When there is a sudden cardiac death, we need to take action to ensure that potentially affected family members are identified and offered counselling and testing to see if they, too, are at risk.

The national clinical director for heart disease, Professor Huon Gray, and representatives of NHS England, the Department of Health and the British Heart Foundation met the Chief Coroner in late 2013 to discuss that matter. Guidance has now been issued to the coronial

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system on how to deal with potentially affected family members. The Department will do all it can to encourage that, and I will write to the Royal College of General Practitioners to draw its attention to Members’ interest in spreading good practice in this regard. NHS England is committed to working with all stakeholders to ensure that we develop and spread good practice, particularly as evidence becomes available.

I will conclude by once again thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh and all hon. Members

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who have attended the debate—I have responded to a great many Adjournment debates, and this is easily one of the best attended. That is clear evidence of the strength of feeling across the House on this important subject. We will continue to give it our utmost attention.

7.43 pm

House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).