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House of Commons

Monday 19 November 2012

The House met at half-past Two o’clock


[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Home Department

The Secretary of State was asked—

Front-line Police Officers

1. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): What change in the number of front-line police officers there has been since May 2010. [128813]

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): May I take this opportunity first to welcome the 41 police and crime commissioners who were elected last Thursday? They have important responsibilities and will be an important voice for people in their force areas in policing local communities. Police and crime commissionerstake up their office officially this Thursday. I look forward to working with them in future to do everything we can to ensure that we can continue to cut crime.

Between March 2010 and March 2012, the total number of front-line officers fell by 6,778.

Mr Slaughter: There are more people here than voted for police and crime commissioners.

The Mayor of London has cut 3,500 police officers and police community support officers in the last two years. The Metropolitan police is getting rid of borough commanders and neighbourhood sergeants, and closing 65 police stations to the public across London, including Shepherd’s Bush in my constituency and South Norwood in Croydon North. Does the Home Secretary think that will make the public in London feel safer or less safe?

Mrs May: Of course, the Metropolitan police has put forward some proposals today in relation to its budget, including proposals to cut central costs significantly and actually increase the number of constables. Neither the hon. Gentleman nor those on his Front Bench are able to get it yet. The Opposition have continually claimed that it is not possible to cut budgets without damaging front-line services or without crime going up; yet budgets are being cut, front-line services are being protected, the number of neighbourhood officers is going up and crime is falling.

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Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): As the Home Secretary correctly says, it is possible to do more with less, as the recent crime statistics have demonstrated. Does she agree that the election of PCCs, such as the excellent Angus Macpherson in Wiltshire—the first ever to be announced—is central to deciding how we can use scarce resources to best effect in tackling crime?

Mrs May: I congratulate Angus Macpherson on his election; indeed, it was good to see that as the first result. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that PCCs will have an important role to play in ensuring that police forces are delivering against their budgets in a way that we all want, which is by ensuring the protection of services such that we can continue to cut crime.

Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): In last week’s elections for the Home Secretary’s flagship policy, 85% of the public decided not to vote. She chose to spend £100 million on having these elections and this transition, which could have been spent on 3,000 police officers this year. She chose to hold the elections in November, to get the Home Office to run them and to deny the public proper information. She was warned in the Commons and the Lords, and by the Electoral Commission and the Electoral Reform Society, that those decisions were wrong. Given the overwhelming public message she received last week, will she now tell us which of those decisions she regrets?

Mrs May: The right hon. Lady really needs to get her story straight on this. She complains about the amount of money that was spent on the police and crime commissioner elections, yet in the same breath she wants more money to be spent on them. Which is it: too much money or too little?

Yvette Cooper: That was not an answer to the question. The Home Secretary has to take some responsibility for the shambles that she has created. In April she got the decision and the date wrong over Abu Qatada by accident; in November she got the date wrong on the elections deliberately. By not holding them in November, she could have saved £25 million alone, but she chose not to. People did not want these elections last week. They said it was a waste of money, they said they did not know anything about it, they objected to the policy and they did not want to vote in the dark. She did not listen to those warnings and she is not listening to the public now or the message that they sent last week. Why does she not listen to them and apologise for the shambles that this Home Secretary and her decisions have created?

Mrs May: I make no apology for introducing police and crime commissioners, who have a democratic mandate for the first time. For the first time, the public know that there is somebody who has been elected who is visible, accessible and accountable to them. PCCs have replaced invisible, unaccountable, unelected police authorities. I think police and crime commissioners are going to make a real difference to cutting crime in this country.

John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): Last week there was also a parliamentary by-election in Manchester Central, where the turnout was 18%, yet I notice that nobody is arguing that it was in any way a shambles or that there was a lack of a democratic mandate. Does my

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right hon. Friend agree that all this says more about the Opposition’s party political point scoring than about any concern for police matters?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I would also point out to the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), that I believe that there was a freepost in that by-election, although it did not seem to drive up the turn-out. I have heard no comments about the legitimacy of the individual who has been elected as a Member of Parliament.

Immigration Rules

2. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What plans she has to review the timing, frequency and communication of changes to the immigration rules and associated guidance. [128814]

The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): Changes to the immigration rules and associated guidance are scheduled twice each year, with additional urgent changes being made when required. Guidance explains how the rules must be applied, and it may be updated more frequently. We keep the need for changing the rules and the guidance under constant review.

Paul Blomfield: I thank the Minister for his reply, but he will know that there have been 15 changes to the UK Border Agency’s guidance to the higher education sector in relation to tier 4 sponsors over the past couple of years. Does he acknowledge the concern on both sides of the House and beyond at the inclusion of international students in net migration targets? Will he also acknowledge that, despite the damage that that has caused to university recruitment, the Government said in their response to the Lords Science and Technology Committee that they were committed to the growth of the university sector? Will he commit to a period of stability in relation to guidance, and to providing better support for tier 4 sponsors?

Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman knows this area very well as a result of his long experience in the sector. He will be aware that we did a full consultation before we introduced the changes to tier 4 rules, and that we rolled them out in three tranches in order to give the sector time to adjust to them. He is wrong on this point: we deliberately protected the university sector, and the UCAS figures that we have just seen show that international student acceptances to universities are up by 4%. Our education sector is open for business.

Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I very much welcome the coalition Government’s efforts to manage and control immigration, but does the Minister agree that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we were to exclude specialist temporary workers who were the existing employees of British companies? We cannot say to inward investors, “We want your money, but we don’t want your workers or your expertise to help us to grow the company.”

Mr Harper: The hon. Lady will know that we have a cap on skilled workers, and that, so far, we have not come anywhere near to it taking effect. No business

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that has wanted to hire a skilled worker who meets the requirements has been unable to do so. Our policies are sound: we are keeping control of immigration but contributing very successfully to economic growth.

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op): I represent Tech City, and in my regular meetings with representatives of those technical businesses, immigration comes up as one of the main challenges. For all the Minister’s comments just now about there being no cap, he is causing confusion and complication in a sector that could be driving the British economy. When will he rethink?

Mr Harper: I really do not think that the hon. Lady is right. We have a cap on skilled migration, but we have not come anywhere near it. We have a clear system for businesses being able to bring in skilled workers. If she has specific examples from businesses in her constituency, I would be delighted to meet the people involved so that I can set out clearly what our policies are, and if there are genuine issues, I will absolutely look at them.

Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give me an assurance that all changes will be properly announced? In particular, I should like an assurance that there will be no repeat of what happened from 1997 onwards, when there was a massive increase in the number of work visas granted to non-EU workers, without proper announcement, and the implementation of a de facto open-door immigration policy—even though it sounds very much as though the Opposition would like to do the same thing again.

Mr Harper: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. We want to ensure that we have firm but fair immigration controls, and that we have a cap on immigration, not least so that businesses can give British workers a proper opportunity to get into employment. If there are skill shortages, they can be dealt with. Our university sector is protected. We have sensible policies that have been announced to the House, and I am very happy to defend them.

Drugs Strategy

3. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What recent assessment she has made of the Government’s drugs strategy; and if she will make a statement. [128815]

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne): The Government published an assessment of the drug strategy in May 2012. We are making good progress. Drug use remains at its lowest since measurement began in 1996. We have the highest numbers completing treatment, and the drug sector is refocusing its approach to move beyond treatment and achieve recovery.

Paul Flynn: The Welsh police unit involved in Operation Tarian reports that the effect of a ban on mephedrone has been to double its use in Wales. Will the Minister bear that in mind when considering a ban on the drug khat, which would almost certainly lead to an increase in use and drive a wedge between the police and the Yemeni and Somali populations?

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Mr Browne: We are always open to strong evidence-based research on how to reduce the harm from drugs, but it is worth bringing to the House’s attention the fact that existing illegal drugs such as heroin and crack cocaine have seen a dramatic fall in their use, while there has been quite a big increase in legal drug consumption. It is not automatically the case that making something legal leads to a reduction in its consumption.

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Given that the number of legal highs detected in Europe has more than doubled since 2009, what action is the Government taking against those who are supplying these drugs?

Mr Browne: My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to this increasing problem, which has been raised with me at the constituency level as being a serious reason to be alarmed. We are obviously making sure that the law is adjusted to take account of the threat to society, but it is a difficult field because it is, of course, evolving very quickly. We need to make sure that we take the necessary measures to protect society. Just because a drug is legal, does not necessarily mean that it is not harmful, especially if taken in the wrong way, so members of the public need to be mindful that this is a potentially hazardous area.

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): The Government promised swift action against legal highs and official figures show that 57 legal highs have hit the UK market just this year—nearly two a week—yet there has been only one temporary banning order in two years. These dangerous substances are killing people, so when will the Government act to protect young people in particular with timely bans and to ensure that the drug strategy promise of good-quality drugs education is delivered in our classrooms?

Mr Browne: On the hon. Lady’s second point, I think there is an awareness and knowledge, particularly among young people, of the harms that drugs can cause. I see that among 11 to 15-year-olds there has been a quite marked decline in drug consumption over the periods for which surveys have been carried out. Of course legal highs are a new threat—not just to young people, but to the population as a whole—which is why we have to consider how best to respond to them. This is an increasing threat, but I repeat the point that overall, drug consumption in this country is falling.

Student Visa System

4. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to reform the student visa system; and if she will make a statement. [128816]

The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): We have overhauled the student visa regime with a series of reforms designed to drive abuse out of the system while improving standards in the sector. As I said in reply to the previous question, we have seen that being successful. The overall number of visas in the part of the sector where there has been abuse is down, but the number of non-EU students accepted into our universities is up. Our universities are very much open for business, and there is no cap on recruitment to them.

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Mr Jones: Many of my constituents have been appalled at the systematic abuse of the student visa system. Will my hon. Friend reassure us that his Department will continue to pursue bogus colleges, which for far too long under the previous Labour Government just opened doors for people to come to this country on bogus student visas?

Mr Harper: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. The point of having student visas is to allow students to come here to study, not to work illegally. We have a very good offer for our higher education sector; students can come here, study and take up work appropriately, and then come here after their studies for post-study work. It is a very good offer. Our good universities should have no trouble converting it into attracting students and saying that they are very much open for business.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will the Minister take this opportunity to wish the international students at London Metropolitan university all the best for their continuing studies there and assure those who have been given one year that they will indeed be allowed to complete the totality of their degree course? Will he confirm that he is having discussions with the university to allow it once more to recruit international students to what is an excellent course of study offered by it?

Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman will know that London Metropolitan university did not carry out the obligations it was supposed to under its sponsor licence, yet it was given plenty of notice to do so. He will also know that the legitimate students who were here appropriately have been given the opportunity to stay either to the end of their course or to the end of the academic year. They have all been written to, and all had the opportunity to reply. UKBA is working closely with the university to make sure that those legitimate students are properly protected.

23. [128837] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I am pleased to hear that the Government are cracking down on the number of bogus students. However, with the closure of the post-study work route, what reassurance can the Minister give me and the House that we are not discouraging bright and capable international students from studying in the UK in the light of the short time frame they are given to find graduate employment?

Mr Harper: Those students who are here to study at universities have an opportunity to find graduate level employment for several months after the end of their course. They can then convert their visa into a work visa and stay here after their course. I think that gives bright students every opportunity to do so, without letting people stay here to do unskilled work that is not of economic benefit to the United Kingdom.

Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Does the Minister accept that, while it is entirely right to bear down on abuses in the system, it is widely felt by higher education institutions throughout the United Kingdom that a message is being conveyed to areas such as south-east Asia and China that this country is no longer as welcoming as other European countries to

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overseas students who wish to study here? Does he recognise that that is potentially very damaging to the long-term health of the UK economy?

Mr Harper: I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that Ministers take every opportunity—as I have today—to make clear that we have a very good offer to make. The only people whom I ever see quoted in the media saying that the UK is closed for business seem to be people from the education sector. I have pointed out to them directly, and will do so again, that there is a great offer for our university students. They should help us to sell and market Britain abroad, as I take every opportunity to do.

Policing Levels (East Midlands)

5. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What recent assessment she has made of policing levels in the east midlands; and if she will make a statement. [128817]

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): I congratulate the chief constables and police officers of Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire and Nottinghamshire on rising to the challenge of cutting crime with reduced budgets. The latest recorded crime statistics show a 15% reduction in recorded crime in the east midlands in the two years to June 2012, with officer numbers down 6% in the past year.

Mr Leigh: Clearly the new police and crime commissioner will have a very challenging role in the current environment. Should not we as a Government show a degree of humility in admitting that very serious errors were made in the way in which we publicised last week’s elections, show determination to make the system work, and explain to people that replacing anaemic police authorities with a single identifiable head is the right way forward?

Damian Green: I agree very much with my hon. Friend’s second point, but less with the first. The police and crime commissioners, including the very good commissioner who has just been elected in his own county—[Hon. Members: “The Tory candidate lost.”] Unlike the Opposition, I am being non-partisan about this.

The new commissioner can build on work that is already under way. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has found that forces expect the proportion of officers working in front-line roles to increase from 83% in March 2010 to 89% in March 2015. That 15% fall in crime in the east midlands is the biggest percentage decrease in all the regions of England and Wales, which demonstrates that the effectiveness of a police force depends not on overall numbers but on how well it deploys its resources.

Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): My constituents are puzzled by the fact that the Government’s priority was to spend £100 million on an election that was unwanted rather than spending that money on 3,000 more police officers. What explanation can the Minister give my puzzled constituents?

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Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman is merely repeating the question asked by his right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary. Let me point out to him that—as was pointed out to his right hon. Friend on television yesterday—the figure that Labour Members keep producing would involve employing 3,000 police officers for one year and then sacking them all. I think his constituents would be pretty puzzled by that.

UK Border Force

6. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): What assessment she has made of the morale of staff in the UK Border Force. [128818]

The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): The morale and professionalism of the staff in the Border Force is obviously vital to the defence of our border security. They performed very well during the Olympic and Paralympic games, and I think that the country was very proud of that. The Home Office has just conducted its annual staff survey, and we will use the results to work with our staff to continue to improve the performance of the Border Force.

Mr McKenzie: The number of cases in which people have been refused the right to remain in the UK but the UK Border Agency does not know whether they have left has shot up by 8% in the last quarter. Is the Minister overseeing a new low in the UK Border Agency, and when will he get to grips with that increasing figure?

Mr Harper: I think that the hon. Gentleman has got his UK Border Agency and his Border Force muddled up. His question was about the Border Force. I have to say, on the basis of my limited time in this job and the visits that I have made to our border controls at Heathrow and Gatwick and the juxtaposed controls in Paris, that the staff whom I have met have been incredibly professional and very hard-working, and have delivered excellent border security. Long may they continue to do so.

Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Speaking as a member of the Home Affairs Committee, which has produced a number of reports on this subject, I wonder whether my hon. Friend agrees with me that, in fact, there has been a lot of progress with the Border Force and a great deal of improvement on the situation we inherited from the previous Government.

Mr Harper: I do agree. I mentioned the Border Force’s performance during the Olympic and Paralympic games. There was some scepticism as to whether it would be able to continue that during the very busy September-October period for student arrivals, but I am pleased to say that it performed very well during that period; we did not see a resumption of queues at Heathrow, and it can be very proud of that level of performance.

Asylum Seekers

7. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): What plans she has to speed up the removal of people refused asylum in the UK. [128820]

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The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): Swift action will be taken against all those who have no lawful permission to remain in the UK. That includes not only failed asylum seekers, but everyone who does not have permission to be here. We are not repeating the last Labour Government’s mistake of focusing only on one thing at a time and letting everything else get out of control, which resulted in the situation we inherited when we came to power.

Stephen Phillips: Speaking as a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, I am extraordinarily grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. He will know that the issue of those who remain in this country illegally is of huge concern to all our constituents. Can he update the House on what action is being taken to deal with it specifically in the east midlands and my constituency?

Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for that question, and I will enjoy being scrutinised by him, as a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, in due course. I can give him a couple of examples. Obviously, we have conducted enforcement operations in his constituency, and he might also be interested to know that this summer in London Operation Mayapple led to more than 2,000 individuals from the London area without permission to be in the UK leaving the country. The number of enforced overstayer removals is up 21% compared with April to September 2011, and arrests are up 16% this year compared with last year.

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): As the Minister will know, the report published last week by the Home Affairs Committee showed that the current backlog in the UKBA had reached one third of a million cases, which is equivalent to the population of Iceland. While I absolutely accept that this backlog began under the previous Government and was there under successive Governments, it has risen by 25,000 in the last three months. What steps is the Minister going to take to ensure this backlog is cleared, and will he commit to ensuring there are no more bonuses to senior UKBA officials until it is cleared?

Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman—who, of course, chairs the Home Affairs Committee—will know that we inherited 500,000 cases on asylum alone from the previous Government, and we have been diligently working through them. He will also know that that will be the focus of a report in due course. Some of the cases will be closed because we see no evidence that the person concerned is in the country, but others will have to be worked through. I will make sure that there is a clear timetable to work through all of them, to ensure that all the people concerned are given a clear decision and matters are concluded on a timely basis so we can finally clear up the situation we inherited from the previous Government.

Policing (Bureaucracy)

8. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): What steps she is taking to reduce bureaucracy in policing. [128821]

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): We have swept away central targets, removed red tape, and extended police powers to prosecute. These

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measures will cut inefficiency, save time and taxpayers’ money and bring swifter justice, freeing up more than 4.5 million police hours—the equivalent of putting over 2,100 officers back on the beat.

Mr Ruffley: I thank the Minister for that reply, and may I congratulate the Home Secretary on setting out a very robust plan for putting more officers back on the beat by reducing bureaucracy? Does the Minister agree that part of the responsibility for cutting red tape lies with chief constables, and some of them are not doing enough to reduce unnecessary form-filling in their forces? Will he also set out what he sees as the newly elected police and crime commissioners’ responsibilities in respect of reducing unnecessary form-filling?

Damian Green: My hon. Friend has been a member of the Treasury Committee for many years, and he is keen on cutting public spending where it is wasteful. He is right that police and crime commissioners will play a key role in encouraging chief constables who need to do better on this to do so. Indeed, the PCC in his county of Suffolk made practical commitments on reducing bureaucracy, including the idea that the time spent supervising criminals or offenders in detention centres, hospitals and behind desks could be carried out by other staff, not by trained police officers. It is that kind of practical approach that will cut bureaucracy and release police officers to serve on the front line, where we want them.

Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): As a member of the Select Committee on Justice, I recall that some years ago, Jan Berry, the ex-chair of the Police Federation, was appointed to conduct a review of police bureaucracy and identify how it could be cut. She well understood the need for a balance between keeping the spirit of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and doing away with needless paperwork. How many of her recommendations have, in fact, been adopted by the Government? If the Minister cannot answer today, will he send me a note—[Interruption.] I do not mean to be offensive, but perhaps he can write and tell me?

Damian Green: I cannot off the top of my head give the right hon. Gentleman the number, but I am pleased to assure him that I have worked closely with Jan Berry, who comes from Kent and still lives there, and has continued to take an interest in police affairs after standing down from the Police Federation. The right hon. Gentleman is right that many of her ideas are extremely good, and I shall write to him with the details.

Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Does the Minister agree that the Home Office is not best placed to lecture on bureaucracy, given that it presided over a shambles of an election that cost an extra £25 million just because it took place in November? Will he remind the House of the basis on which November was chosen for the election date?

Damian Green: The election date was chosen by Parliament. There have been many elections in November. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman may have noticed that the American public went to vote earlier this month—they do not seem to object to a November election.

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He would do well to take the advice of the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, who said on Friday after the elections were over:

“We shouldn’t carp, we should now move on and we should accept the elections of the new commissioners as they come through and…make sure that it works because they are there, they’re in place, the public have spoken”.

I think that the Chair of the Select Committee is wiser than the shadow Minister.

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that participation in future PCC elections will improve, as excellent candidates such as Sir Clive Loader in Leicestershire will be able to point to a record of achievement? Does he agree, too, that one method of increasing voter participation that should not be encouraged, and should be resisted at all costs, is giving prisoners the vote in these or any other elections?

Mr Speaker: I remind the Minister that we are discussing reducing bureaucracy in policing.

Damian Green: I will happily obey you in this instance, Mr Speaker, as I always do.

Sir Clive Loader will make an excellent PCC, and he will be keen to reduce bureaucracy. It is precisely on their record of releasing the energies of the police to do what we want them to do and serve on the front line that PCCs will be judged when the elections come round again. I am sure that that will engage the public more.

Student Visas

9. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): How many student visas she expects to be issued in 2013. [128822]

The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): Our student visa reforms are tackling abuse of the system while protecting universities.

We do not publish forecasts of numbers of grants, but the recently published entry clearance visa statistics for the year to June 2012 show that the number of tier 4 study visas was 214,000. That is a 30% decrease on the year before, mainly from the non-university sector. There is no cap on recruitment to universities and, as I have said, UCAS acceptances of non-EU students are up 4%.

Pamela Nash: I thank the Minister for his answer. He has said that the number of visas granted has gone down. Does he want that trend to continue, or does he agree with me that that will damage any attempt to promote our higher education system as a great British product?

Mr Harper: As I have said, there is no cap on the number of students going to universities. I want the number of visas granted to people who plan to come to the United Kingdom to abuse our immigration system to go down, which is exactly what has happened. We have got rid of the abuse and we are making sure that our university sector is open for business. I make no apologies for the fact that I have said that three times during questions. We have a good offer for our university sector, and it can make a success of it.

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Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Given the scale of the earlier abuse, does my hon. Friend agree that the integrity of the student visa system depends on interviews? Is he satisfied that there will be sufficient staff at our embassies and consulates overseas to cope with the valued and welcome arrival of students in this country?

Mr Harper: My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. We have started to do some interviewing in some high-risk countries, which has been very successful and has demonstrated the value of interviewing in certain locations, which allows us to drive out some clear abuse. Where that makes sense, we will continue to do it and will increase our ability to do so.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Prime Minister told students in Dubai—he has a habit of answering questions when he is abroad, if not when he is in this country—that there is no limit on international students in the UK, and the Minister has repeated that this afternoon. However, the Migration Advisory Committee states that there will have to be 86,600 fewer students over the next three years if the Government are to meet their target. Who is right? Is Boris Johnson right to say that we are losing a massive business opportunity? Is the director general of the CBI right to say that it is putting people off? Or is the Minister just confused?

Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman should understand that we have a net migration target, so those students who come to the UK, study and leave make no contribution to the net migration statistics. Our universities can go out, recruit smart students and educate them and they will make no difference at all to net migration. The Prime Minister is absolutely spot on and I think that it is the hon. Gentleman who is confused, as someone who does not believe in having a net migration target at all.

Visa System

10. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): What steps her Department is taking through the visa system to enable business and tourist visitors to contribute to economic growth. [128823]

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): The UK Border Agency supports economic growth through delivering an effective visa service, which processed almost 2 million applications for visitor visas in 2011, and exceeding our public commitment to process 90% of cases within 15 working days. We take our economic responsibilities seriously and the UK Border Agency is constantly looking to improve the service it offers. Amongst other measures, it has launched priority services, such as providing a five-day visa service, premium lounges for high-value customers and out-of-hours appointments at visa application centres.

Peter Aldous: What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to speed up clearance and entry for Chinese business visitors, tourists and investors who have been identified by Visit East Anglia, Suffolk chamber of commerce and chambers of commerce across the UK as a vital means of growing international trade and export markets?

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Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the issue of Chinese visitors to the UK. That is an important market for the UK and I am pleased to say that we have seen some strong growth in the number of Chinese visitors to the UK for both business and tourism. It is one of our priority markets, so we have undertaken a number of changes to our system. Half our Chinese business customers, for example, now benefit from access to a priority scheme. We have opened new expanded visa application centres in a number of cities, but we will continue to look at what we do to ensure that our clear message is that Britain is open for business and has a functioning visa system that ensures that those whom we wish to welcome to the UK can come.

Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): It is no good saying that we are open for business when the perception out there is that we are not. Will the Home Secretary consider meeting admission tutors from the Russell group and representatives of chambers of commerce to familiarise herself with what is happening on the ground? The perception is that we are not open for business and that access is not as quick as it should be.

Mrs May: One problem is that a lot of people are claiming that the UK is not open for business because of our visa system. The former Immigration Minister went out to visit China and clearly gave out the message. The former and current Immigration Ministers and I have met people from the universities, the CBI and other business sectors to talk to them about the issue. It is not just for the Government to go out and say that Britain is open for business—business organisations and universities should give out that message. As the Immigration Minister said earlier, UCAS figures show that the number of applications from non-EU overseas students to our universities has gone up. The universities should stop claiming that there is a problem and go out and say that they are open for business.

Police Procurement

11. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What assessment she has made of the potential for achieving savings through economies of scale in police procurement. [128824]

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): The Government estimate that savings of £200 million per year, including from economies of scale, can be made through joining up police procurement by the end of March 2015.

David Mowat: One area with potential benefits is IT spend, which should not continue to be replicated 42 times. Will the Minister give us an update on the progress of the Police ICT Company, announced in July, and confirm that the police and crime commissioners, including the excellent John Dwyer in Cheshire, will be expected to use it?

Damian Green: I echo my hon. Friend’s praise for the new PCC in Cheshire. We hope that the PCCs will eventually own, take over and run the Police ICT Company because its purpose is to ensure that the PCCs have the opportunity to secure critical services and help to make

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savings. The company will offer services that help individual forces achieve efficiencies through the procurement, re-use and management of their ICT, and I very much hope that a large number of commissioners will take up this offer.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): In Kent the new PCC was the outgoing chair of the police authority. When she was elected, she made it clear that she would have no truck with privatisation. It should be said that she resoundingly beat the Tory candidate by nearly 2:1. Is that not an indictment of the Government’s policy on PCCs, and is it not an example showing that the existing chair was much preferred—

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question is rather long and it is only tangentially related to the matter on the Order Paper. I have indulged—[Interruption.] Order. I have indulged him adequately.

Damian Green: I am not entirely sure that the hon. Gentleman had got to a point yet. It will clearly be in PCCs’ own interest to look at the best way of spending most efficiently the money that they control so that police are visible on the front line and are able to cut crime. In the end PCCs have been elected, they are responsible for their own actions and what they say, and the electorate will judge them after a few years. I urge all PCCs to take a sensible and pragmatic view about the Police ICT Company and collaboration.

Antisocial Behaviour

12. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): What progress her Department has made in reducing levels of alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. [128825]

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne): Last month, the Government commenced new powers to help local authorities and the police tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder. They can now impose early-morning alcohol restriction orders and charge a late-night levy on pubs and clubs to go towards the costs of policing the late-night economy. We have already reformed alcohol licensing laws. We will also give front-line professionals faster, more effective powers to protect the public from antisocial behaviour.

Stuart Andrew: Alcohol-related antisocial behaviour can be a blight on some of our towns and cities and is particularly distressing for victims. Will my hon. Friend urge the newly elected PCCs to work with local authorities to implement this welcome new tool?

Mr Browne: I recognise the problem identified by my hon. Friend and I urge all PCCs who were elected last week to work in partnership with local authorities, the police and others to use the new powers that we have given them to enhance the safety of the communities they represent.

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): In Wrexham CCTV has played an important role in reducing alcohol-related antisocial behaviour. Is it the Government’s policy to reduce the number of CCTV cameras?

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Mr Browne: In my constituency, Taunton Deane, CCTV plays a useful role in protecting the public as well. The Government’s policy is that CCTV can play an important role in community safety and reducing crime, but it is not the same as Labour’s position, which is that the more CCTV cameras there are, the better the society we live in. We think these things have to be proportionate. CCTV has a role to play but it is not as big a role as the hon. Gentleman perhaps feels.

Police and Crime Commissioners

13. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): When she plans to meet the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester. [128826]

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): I welcome Tony Lloyd to his new role as the first police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester. I am writing, I hope today, to all PCCs in advance of their assuming office on Thursday, to congratulate them and to invite them to join me and my ministerial team for an event on 3 December.

Paul Goggins: I am grateful for that answer and for the warm welcome from the Home Secretary. I am sure that when she meets Tony Lloyd, she will want to thank him for standing in the election because without Labour last Thursday, the turnout in Greater Manchester would have been lower than 7%. Given the level of concern expressed during the campaign about antisocial behaviour, will she review her current approach and, instead of rebranding and weakening antisocial behaviour orders, will she work with Tony Lloyd and other police and crime commissioners to strengthen the law in this respect so that those who make other people’s lives unbearable can be dealt with effectively?

Mrs May: I note that Tony Lloyd, referring to the turnout at the elections, said:

“It doesn’t take away the mandate of the PCC… That, like any good politician, is earned not only at the election; it’s earned by working with the public, being there to listen to the public and to represent the public.”

On antisocial behaviour orders, we are strengthening the ability of the police and others to work against antisocial behaviour. Crucially, we are giving local communities and individuals greater powers, such as the community trigger, which will enable people, if action is not being taken on antisocial behaviour, to require that action is taken. That did not happen under the Labour party.

Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Let me tell the Home Secretary:

“What we ended up with was a toxic mix of low voter awareness about the role, the absence of an active public information campaign, near silence from politicians and polling day moved to a time of year when it gets dark at 4 pm.”

Those are the words of the Conservative Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns). In truth, Members across the House have raised concerns about the elections. Does she accept that any mistakes were made?

Mrs May: As I have said elsewhere, of course I am disappointed about the turnout. I believe that the turnout at the next elections will be higher because people will

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have seen police and crime commissioners in their role and the commissioners will have a record to defend, as the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) has just said, but it was up to politicians across the board and others to go out and campaign, and the Government did run an awareness campaign. I return to the point I made at the beginning of Question Time: police and crime commissioners replace police authorities, which were invisible, unaccountable and unelected. Police and crime commissioners are elected, visible, accessible and, crucially, accountable to the people.

Gangmasters Licensing Authority

14. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the effectiveness of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority in tackling trafficked labour. [128827]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire): The Gangmasters Licensing Authority plays a key role in protecting workers who may be exploited in the agriculture, shellfish, and food processing and packaging industries. A recent Government review streamlined its remit to focus on suspected serious and organised crime, working more closely with the Serious Organised Crime Agency and other specialist law enforcement agencies.

Michael Connarty: I thank the Minister for that endorsement of the work of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, particularly given the recent evidence of the Noble/Freedom Food eggs scandal, which was described as the worst case of human trafficking the Gangmasters Licensing Authority had ever seen. However, would it not be better if the Government took on the principles contained in my Transparency in UK Company Supply Chains (Eradication of Slavery) Bill so that companies ordering those goods have a responsibility to trace right back to the source what is happening in the supply chain and we stop that kind of abuse of workers who come here to pick and work in our farms?

James Brokenshire: I certainly recognise the serious nature of the crimes the hon. Gentleman highlights and am sure that he will welcome a number of the joint operations with the Serious Organised Crime Agency—in a recent case, 30 Lithuanians were freed as a consequence. I hope that he will also welcome the work of colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who have recently put out for public consultation legislation on the human rights reporting requirements of quoted companies, which we believe will go a long way towards addressing the concerns highlighted in his Bill.

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): In human trafficking, far more people are exploited for labour than for sex, and the Minister is right to concentrate on organised gangs. Will he expand a little on how the Government will target organised gangs?

James Brokenshire: I know that my hon. Friend has a long-standing commitment to and interest in this important issue. I highlight the creation of the new National Crime Agency with an attached border command, which

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will harness greater intelligence. The national human trafficking centre will form part of that and will, we believe, really strengthen the approach in combating that appalling crime.

Topical Questions

T1. [128838] Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): The Government have a comprehensive programme of police reform. To make policing more professional and evidence-based, we are establishing a college of policing. To get tough on organised crime, we are establishing the National Crime Agency. To ensure we reward specialist skills, we are reforming police pay. To give the public a stronger voice, we have introduced crime maps and mandatory beat meetings, and the election of police and crime commissioners will give the public a say for the first time in how their local police forces are run. Police reform is working; the front-line service is being maintained and crime is falling. I commend police officers for their achievements.

Christopher Pincher: Since the passage of the Human Rights Act a decade ago, the time taken to deport potentially dangerous individuals, such as Abu Hamza and now Abu Qatada, has reached unacceptable lengths. Will my right hon. Friend pursue any and all measures to ensure that those people who may represent a threat to our country can be quickly deported from our country?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend raises a point that I know is of concern not only to Members of this House, but to many members of the public. I assure him that the Government are looking at pursuing a number of avenues to ensure that we can reduce the length of time it takes both to deport people from this country and, indeed, to extradite people. In the case of Abu Hamza, the judiciary has itself made comments about the need to look at the processes that we follow, to ensure that we can use not only the reforms of the European Court, but those in our own judicial processes to reduce the length of time it takes to deport those people who are a potential threat to this country.

T2. [128839] Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Following my comments in the House about Cyril Smith’s abuse of boys, I understand that the Crown Prosecution Service has now located investigation files relating to Smith from the 1960s. Could the Home Secretary now look at whether it is true that the then Director of Public Prosecutions received a second opinion recommending that Smith be prosecuted; why he concluded that it was not in the public interest; what role, if any, the security services played; and how the Government intend to get to the bottom of what several former police officers are now referring to as a cover-up?

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne): All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that if members of the public have concerns that they wish to report, they should report them to the police, and if they have concerns about the police, they should report

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them to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Obviously, we would expect those authorities to act on the information provided to them.

T3. [128841] Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Some of my constituents have had their applications for indefinite leave to remain returned after months of waiting, only to find that there was an error in their payment details. Why is there a separate verification process for payment details? Why not have one process? That would solve the problem of people going back to the beginning of the queue simply because of an error that is not always of their making?

The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. The process for scrutinising applications is such that any payment issues are supposed to be looked at right at the beginning of the process, so that they can be dealt with swiftly. If my hon. Friend knows of specific cases in which that has not happened, I would, of course, be pleased to either hear from him or meet him to discuss them in more detail.

T5. [128843] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): At 32 square miles, Scarisbrick in my constituency is the largest parish in Lancashire. The village now shares its one police constable and two police community support officers with neighbouring Burscough, following the £42 million-worth of cuts to Lancashire’s police budget. At night, three police officers cover 50 square miles from Ormskirk to Skelmersdale, which are vast areas for the police to cover. How can the Home Secretary justify to my constituents that the £100 million spent on the police and crime commissioner elections, with a turnout of just 15% in Lancashire, is an effective use of scarce resources when we are losing front-line officers?

The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): Obviously, it is not for me to comment on the individual operational judgments of the chief constable of Lancashire, but I am happy to be able to tell the hon. Lady and the House that, despite the constraints that she has mentioned, recorded crime in Lancashire between June 2011 and June 2012 went down by 2%. I hope that not just her constituents, but others in Lancashire are reassured that the police there are doing an extremely good job of cutting crime and keeping the streets safer.

T4. [128842] Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Metal theft has been a huge problem for some community groups and churches in the Pudsey constituency. It costs a great deal of money and is a problem throughout the country. Does my hon. Friend the Minister welcome the passage through the House of the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill and share my belief that we must reform the industry in order to support legitimate dealers and make it much harder for those who provide a market for stolen metal?

Mr Jeremy Browne: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Crimes such as taking lead from church roofs or stripping plaques from war memorials cause offence to Members of all parties. The Government are already taking action. On 3 December, new measures will come into force to better regulate the scrap metal industry. My hon. Friend has rightly drawn the House’s attention

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to the private Member’s Bill that received its Third Reading last week. We are also taking additional actions in concert with the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), to further regulate this important industry and make sure that it does not contain criminal behaviour.

T6. [128844] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I was interested in the answers on student visas because a week ago on Saturday, I had a meeting at Coventry university with a Minister from Oman who takes an interest in science and technology and who wants to do business with the university. The issues raised were the delay in getting student visas, which seems to be putting people off, and the cost for students. What will the Government do about that? It is no good making excuses.

Mr Harper: It sounds as though it would be helpful if I looked at the details of the case, so I would be happy to hear from the hon. Gentleman. In most cases, visa applications are processed very quickly. We say yes in most cases and deliver a timely service. Without knowing the specifics, such as which country the students are from, it is difficult to give a specific answer. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says Oman. We deliver an excellent visa processing service for a number of the Gulf countries. If he gives me more details, I will look into the matter for him.

T7. [128845] Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): To many, it seems that the rights of dangerous hate preachers are now more important than the rights of the British people to a peaceful and secure life. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure the safety of the British people and that there is no place in this country for those who would harm us?

Mrs May: As my hon. Friend points out, he is raising a concern that is felt by many members of the public. Obviously, we have recently had the judgment in relation to Abu Qatada, which I think may have triggered my hon. Friend’s thinking on this issue. We are seeking leave to appeal that judgment, but we will also continue to work with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done. We will pursue all avenues to ensure that we can deport Abu Qatada. This Government have taken a stronger line on whether we allow those who can be described as hate preachers into this country and have ensured that fewer of them cross our shores.

Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Home Secretary will be aware that there are concerns about the provisions in the Justice and Security Bill, which is being debated in the other place today, that introduce closed material proceedings. The provisions will enable judges to see all the evidence in cases that affect national security, while protecting vital intelligence. Will she work with the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) to reassure Members of the Lords and of this House that those proceedings, while essential, will be used only when absolutely necessary?

Mrs May: I am happy to give the right hon. Lady an assurance to that effect. This is an important Bill, because in a very small but growing number of cases, it

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is not possible for the Government to defend themselves because the information cannot be made available in open court. As a result, settlements have to be made and there is no justice, because there is no trial or judgment on the rights and wrongs of the case. Hence, there is a desire to introduce closed material proceedings in a very limited number of cases, where it is necessary and proportionate. I am obviously working with my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio to that end.

T8. [128846] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): The net receipts under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 were £165 million last year. I appreciate that a fair chunk of that money is reinvested in local crime-fighting initiatives, but will the ministerial team look at the percentage that is allocated to local community projects, so that more groups like the Thornton Lodge action group can be successful in their bids?

Mr Jeremy Browne: Yes, I can give that undertaking. A small amount of the money is made available to community groups. My hon. Friend makes a valid point about whether that percentage could be higher and we will look at how that might be achieved.

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is no good Ministers lecturing police and crime commissioners on the merits of forces sharing costs in procurement when they could have saved the public purse £25 million by combining the PCC elections with other local elections. Why did Ministers ignore the calls from Opposition Members to combine the elections with next year’s county council elections?

Damian Green: Opposition Members must get their story straight. Half of them say that we should not have spent as much money on these elections as we did; the other half say that we should have spent more money. If they come up with a coherent argument, we will give an answer.

T9. [128847] Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): Mindful of the Home Secretary’s well known views on the Human Rights Act 1998, but also of the difficulties of coalition government, will she persuade the Leader of the House to make time available for my forthcoming ten-minute rule Bill, which would repeal that Act?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is tempting me to make comments on that particular issue. I am sure that the Leader of the House, who is present, has heard what he said and will give due consideration to the issue that he raised.

David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Police and community support officers are incredibly popular in West Mercia, and their numbers should be sustained at current levels. Does the Home Secretary believe that, by the time of next election, the number of PCSOs in the West Mercia area and in Telford will be at current levels, or will there be fewer or more?

Mrs May: The change that we have made as a Government is that we say to local police forces, “With the police and crime commissioners in place, it will be

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up to you to decide how you wish to have the staffing, and the numbers that you want.” That decision will be taken at police force area level, not dictated by the Home Office. I believe that that is right.

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Will the Home Secretary join me in congratulating the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, not only on reducing crime figures in the London area, but on his ambition to have 2,000 extra police constables each year for the next three years so that, by March 2015, there will be a record number of 26,000 police constables in Greater London? Will she congratulate him—effusively, if she wants?

Mrs May: I am happy to commend the work that the Mayor of London as police commissioner and the deputy Mayor have done for several years, although the Mayor formally became a police and crime commissioner only in January this year. He has always emphasised recruiting and the number of constables who are out there and available. Obviously, the Met and the deputy Mayor, who has responsibility for crime and policing, are looking carefully at the Met’s budget to ensure that they can take out waste and that the money is spent cost effectively, as they said today, on recruiting more constables.

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Given the large number of voluntary organisations around the country, including SAIVE in Staffordshire, that look to provide counselling for the children who were abused in sex scandals, will the Home Secretary consider assessing the extra resources that are needed to provide counselling as a result of the inquiries that she has set up?

Mrs May: I think I recall that the hon. Lady raised the point when I made the statement on north Wales. I have taken away that issue. Obviously, the Home Office does not provide the particular service that she mentioned, which comes under other Departments. I will raise the matter with those Departments.

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Does the Home Secretary agree with the conclusion of the Home Affairs Committee that, compared with police authorities, the police and crime commissioners will

“have a greater incentive to make savings since the level of police precept will be one of the most visible indicators of their performance to their electorate”?

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Mrs May: I am very pleased to agree with my hon. Friend and the Home Affairs Committee on that matter.

Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Some women asylum seekers end up on the detained fast-track procedure because they have been reluctant to disclose sexual violence and abuse. How can Ministers ensure that the system will be sensitive to such women’s experiences?

Mr Harper: One of the things that the UK Border Agency is attempting to do is make sure that the system is more sensitive to those who have suffered sexual violence and have been trafficked. It has recently published some information about how it goes about doing that through training its front-line officers and its caseworkers. I take that matter very seriously, and will ensure that the UK Border Agency pays great attention to it. If the hon. Lady has any particular concerns about specific cases, I am of course happy to discuss them with her at any time.

Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Andrea Leadsom.

Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have been complaining to a national housing association for the past two years on behalf of a small group of constituents who are suffering at the hands of a small group of social tenants things such as homophobic attacks, domestic violence on the street and drug dealing in the streets. The housing association has done nothing about it. What more can we do to force housing associations to take their responsibilities more seriously and allow other people to live their lives quietly?

Mr Jeremy Browne: The housing association and, indeed, the local authority and the local police force should take my hon. Friend’s complaints and those of the residents in her area more seriously. I urge her to ensure that they work effectively on behalf of her constituents. If she feels that that is not being done, she may wish to raise the matter with the new police and crime commissioner.

Several hon. Members rose

Mr Speaker: I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, but, as they know, in Home Office questions, demand invariably exceeds supply. We must now move on.

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UK Aid (Uganda and Rwanda)

3.34 pm

Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if she will make a statement on UK aid to Uganda and Rwanda in light of renewed conflict by M23 rebels in Goma, eastern DRC, and the Secretary of State’s announcement that she has suspended aid to Uganda as a result of serious allegations of corruption.

The Secretary of State for International Development (Justine Greening): The Foreign Secretary and I are deeply concerned by the rapidly deteriorating security and humanitarian situation in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo—DRC—caused by the military activities of the March 23 Movement, known as the M23. On 17 November, the M23 launched an attack on Congolese army positions at Kibumba, a key defensive position 30 km north of Goma, and fierce fighting then ensued. The UN forces—MONUSCO—have also engaged to seek to prevent the M23 advance. We understand that the M23 has not taken Goma, but the situation is deeply unstable and the local population extremely worried. We do not yet have clear figures on casualties. I understand that up to 80,000 people are moving around Goma to refugee camps on the other side of the town, but we have not seen any major movements of refugees across the border.

As the Foreign Secretary said in his statement at the weekend, the Government

“strongly condemn the M23’s advance towards Goma and call on it immediately to desist from further violence. I am particularly concerned by the risk to civilians, the population of Goma and refugees in surrounding areas. I urge those with influence over the M23 to call on them to stop fighting and not to provide them any external support.”

The UK Government call for a cessation of hostilities and for all parties to engage to resolve this crisis without further bloodshed.

On aid programmes in Rwanda and Uganda, as I said to the International Development Committee at its evidence session on Rwanda last week, I will be reviewing all the evidence—including, of course, the latest evidence on renewed fighting in eastern DRC—and look at how the situation develops before making any further decisions on the next disbursement of general budget support.

As I announced last week, following the suspension of aid to the office of the Prime Minister in Uganda in August, I have now suspended all aid that goes through the Government of Uganda’s financial systems. That is as a result of initial evidence emerging from our ongoing forensic audit of the office of the Prime Minister, which indicates that aid money may have been misused, and an additional report by the Ugandan Auditor General into the misuse of aid by other donors. I have suspended £11 million of our aid programme, including general budget support, although other aid that is not channelled through the Government is continuing. The driver for that decision is obviously distinct from the situation about which the hon. Gentleman asked regarding the M23 and activities in DRC.

I am sure the House will share my concern, and that of the Foreign Secretary, about the situation in eastern DRC. We remain committed to working with the region

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to find durable solutions that bring stability and remove causes of conflict that currently leave space for armed groups to prosper. Solutions could involve security sector reform, work to return refugees to their places of origin over time, or work to extend the state reach of the Government in Kinshasa to all parts of DRC. Solutions must be led by the Government of DRC and will need the support of the region to be implemented. Our role is to try to assist in creating conditions that can bring durable peace, both through our development programmes in the region and our diplomatic efforts. However, there is no magic bullet to solve the crisis.

Mr Lewis: I thank the right hon. Lady for that answer, but she is developing an unhealthy habit of making important announcements via the press, rather than directly to Parliament. That was the case in relation to aid to India a couple of weeks ago, and now with Uganda. Will she reassure hon. Members that in future all important statements will be made first to the House of Commons?

As the right hon. Lady has said, we heard disturbing news overnight that the M23 militia is advancing on Goma. Its activities have terrorised the civilian population, led to the displacement of thousands of people, and caused yet another tragic humanitarian crisis in eastern DRC. Successive UN reports have been damning in their criticism of direct support for those activities by the Government of Rwanda, and have also expressed serious concern about the involvement of the Ugandan Government.

The Government’s policy on this crisis has been nothing short of shambolic and has seriously undermined the international effort to send a unified and unequivocal message to the Rwandan Government that their actions are entirely unacceptable. The answer today was incredibly complacent.

First, will the Secretary of State now acknowledge that her predecessor’s decision to reinstate budget support to Rwanda was a profound error of judgment? Secondly, will she explain why—according to her predecessor’s recent evidence to the International Development Committee—the decision was taken despite Rwanda’s failure to meet two of the conditions laid down specifically by the Prime Minister? Those two conditions were a public condemnation of M23 and a cessation of all support for its activities by the Rwandan Government. Thirdly, will the Secretary of State today stop dithering and make it clear that the next tranche of budgetary support will not be released to Rwanda unless it fully complies with the Prime Minister’s own conditions? Finally, what steps has the Foreign Secretary taken to indicate our serious concerns to the Government of Rwanda? Is it not now essential that he or one of his Ministers calls in the Rwandan ambassador to the UK for urgent talks?

On Uganda, when the Government came to power, they made a strong commitment to be tough on corruption. That is absolutely right; British taxpayers have a right to expect that their hard-earned money goes to the poorest, and not to the bank accounts of the rich and powerful. However, in November last year, the Independent Commission on Aid Impact, which was set up by the previous Secretary of State, identified a major gap between the Government’s rhetoric on corruption and the realities of the measures being taken by the Department for International Development.

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Will the Secretary of State therefore tell us in some detail when the allegations of corruption first came to light? How were they brought to the attention of her Department? What estimate has been made of the amount of UK aid that has been siphoned off for inappropriate purposes? What steps are being taken to recover any losses of British taxpayers’ money? What criteria will she apply when deciding whether to reinstate direct financial aid to the Ugandan Government? Finally, does she not feel in the slightest bit embarrassed that, when the rest of the international community is suspending budget support to the Government of Rwanda because they are actively supporting a militia that is undermining the civilian population in eastern DRC, she is a member of a Government who have departed from that international coalition and who have sent entirely the wrong message to the President of Rwanda?

Justine Greening: I am disappointed by the tone that the hon. Gentleman has taken on this important matter, and by his attempt to politicise something that is of deep concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House. I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that, as you know, I make written ministerial statements whenever we believe them to be of a substance that is warranted in the House—[Interruption.] We did indeed make statements to the House, and I will endeavour to continue to do so. I am always happy to answer urgent questions on any issues, as you see fit, Mr Speaker.

On Rwanda, I should point out that, under my predecessor, the Government reduced the amount of general budget support from the levels we inherited. That support will continue to fall over the coming months. The shadow Secretary of State mentioned the President of Rwanda, but a Labour predecessor of mine called him a “sweetie”. Labour therefore has no ability to criticise the Government in relation to tracking the results of our aid or in relation to being clear on whether it is being spent appropriately. Whenever we have needed to take action to curb aid, we have done so.

The shadow Secretary of State may disagree with the reasons for partially putting through some further budget support earlier this year, but I have been clear with the International Development Committee, including last week, that I will take a look at all the evidence on the ground from all sources when I come to make my decision in December. I will not pre-empt that. When I met the Committee last week, the situation on the ground in eastern DRC was different from how it is today. He might want to pre-empt where we might be in December, which is when I will take my next decision, but it would not be correct for me to follow suit, as he wants me to do.

In relation to what conditions we will seek to see adhered to, we have been clear cut about both the partnership principles that we struck up with the Government of Rwanda and the PM’s conditions. I think they are absolutely right, and I will again look at them when I come to take my decision in December.

The hon. Gentleman asked what steps the Government had taken in relation to the Rwandan Government regarding the M23. The Foreign Secretary spoke with the Rwandan Foreign Minister at the weekend.

On Uganda, I have to say that we have taken action in a timely fashion in relation to suspending aid to Uganda. I presume the hon. Gentleman does not disagree with the

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decision I took. No, he clearly does not. I am delighted he supports the decision we have taken. If I can set out the chronology of what happened, in August we had initial reports of fraud and corruption in relation to the office of the Prime Minister—not in relation to our money, but other donor money. At that stage, we duly suspended our further funding to the office of the Prime Minister. After that, we initiated a forensic audit, and the initial results of that forensic audit have led me to suspend all aid, more broadly, to the Government of Uganda.

This has been a logical process that has taken account of all information, but has sought always to consider the fact that we still want to make sure that our development work in countries such as Uganda and Rwanda helps to alleviate the extreme poverty faced by the people on the ground on a day-to-day basis. These are often difficult decisions to have to take, but we take them based on the facts that we have at the time, and in discussion across Government. I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman’s questions, and I look forward to other questions from my colleagues.

Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House agree that what matters in this conflict is the needs of the people of Rwanda, Uganda and eastern Congo, and the need for them to receive the support and assistance that aid provides and also have some kind of trust in their own Governments. What steps will the Secretary of State take to consult all other donor agencies to try to ensure that we co-ordinate our response?

May I remind the House that this is not the first time that aid has been suspended to Uganda because of corruption? The previous Government had to do this, too. This is a disappointing development that suggests that the Ugandan Government have not learnt very much. I remind the House that the Select Committee on International Development is currently conducting an inquiry into the situation in Rwanda. We hope to have a report ready in time to help the Secretary of State with her decision.

Justine Greening: I appreciate the work the right hon. Gentleman’s Committee has done to help inform these important decisions. He is right that we discuss with other donors, both at official and ministerial level as appropriate, all views that are held about what is happening on the ground, and, critically, the implications for aid. As he rightly pointed out, we must always bear in mind that the point of development programmes is to help people on the ground. Surely, we have to bear that in mind before we simply turn off the tap. That is precisely what I intend to do.

Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Over the past 10 years, I have worked in Uganda and have seen the impact of DFID’s direct budget support, particularly on health care. Will the Secretary of State tell us what impact assessment DFID has carried out in Uganda on the possible reduction of vital services to the Ugandan people as a result of the suspension of direct budget support?

Justine Greening: To provide the hon. Lady with some reassurance, let me say that the vast majority of our aid goes not through the Government of Uganda,

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but through other non-governmental organisations on the ground. We are looking at what we can do to ensure that we continue to achieve the same results in relation to the programmes that we had planned to have undergoing at the moment in Uganda. Again, I have to steer a balance in ensuring that taxpayers’ money is spent appropriately and is not withdrawn from the system by corruption and fraud, while, as she pointed out, making sure that we bear in mind that the programme was there to make a difference and that we still want that difference to be made.

Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that no effort should be spared in bringing to justice the wicked and evil Bosco Ntaganda, a convicted war criminal? What extra efforts are being made to apprehend him?

Will my right hon. Friend also reinforce the point that her predecessor, our right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), behaved honourably and correctly, as he made clear to the International Development Select Committee the other day?

Justine Greening: Yes, and I will start by reiterating the points I made to the Select Committee. I believe that my predecessor went through an extremely robust process and took a robust decision on Rwanda, and I fully support his actions. Of course, I will have to go through a similar process and reach my own conclusions about the next tranche.

On those who have led the horrific violence on the ground, which has included sexual violence against women and getting children to sign up to armies against their will, we should absolutely leave no stone unturned in bringing them to justice

Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary of State referred to a conversation with the Rwandan Foreign Minister. Did that conversation include discussion of the implications for services on the ground—my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) mentioned this—particularly in relation to health care? Rwanda has made considerable progress, but does the right hon. Lady agree that that is being undermined by the current situation?

Justine Greening: The Foreign Secretary’s discussions were clearly aimed at discussing what could be done to alleviate and resolve the situation on the ground. The hon. Lady is right that by working with the Rwandan Government many donors have made combined efforts that have substantially reduced poverty in Rwanda. It is worth bearing in mind, however, that 5 million people are still living in extreme poverty, which is precisely why we would like that progress to continue. However, the Government have a memorandum of understanding with the Rwandan Government that includes partnership principles, which we will focus on greatly when we make our next decision on whether to disburse further budget support in December.

Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I echo the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham).

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As the Secretary of State may be aware, I have been travelling to Rwanda for seven years, working on primary education projects. International development is about reducing poverty, not playing politics with the poor. Does she agree that with the support of the Department for International Development—under the last Government and our Government—we have made huge strides in reducing poverty in that tragic country?

Justine Greening: I believe that the Government have worked extremely closely and successfully with the Rwandan Government, as did the last Government, and obviously it is of concern when there are issues that put that progress under threat. We would like it to continue. I am clear, however, that the partnership principles set out in the memorandum of understanding with Rwanda are important, and it is those that we will consider when we decide whether to disburse further budget support in December.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): When the Secretary of State looks at the issue of aid to Rwanda and Uganda, will she also reflect for a moment that the fundamental cause of instability, misery and poverty in the eastern DRC is the greed of mineral companies and many others for the natural resources of the region? Will she look carefully, therefore, at the role that any British-based mining companies have played in promoting militias, supporting inappropriate development or extracting large untaxed profits from the region?

Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman touches on an important issue. The Government have been clear that progress on the extractive industries transparency initiative is very important to ensuring that, critically, when countries with clear mineral or natural resources want them exploited for the benefit of that country, that happens, and that they are supported in getting the most out of the revenue stream that those minerals can help unlock. There are several causes of the particular situation in eastern DRC, but I can assure him more broadly that the Government take seriously the issue about extractive industries and are seeking to make more progress on it, along with our international partners.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Nothing enrages my constituents more than the prospect of Britain’s international aid falling into the hands of corrupt officials, because my constituents want the money that we provide to go to the poorest people who need the help the most. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that her Department has a sufficiently robust early-warning system, so that she is advised of any potential corruption in any of Britain’s aid programmes?

Justine Greening: I am going through that process right now, so that I can assure myself of that, but it is worth pointing out that in the case of Uganda we suspended donations and aid to the office of the Prime Minister when fraud and corruption issues were seen by other donors, not in relation to our budget, so we have always taken a precautionary approach wherever we can.

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I raised the issue of reinstating aid to Rwanda with the Prime Minister on 17 October at Prime Minister’s questions, because of

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the Rwandan Government’s support for the M23 rebels, who are murdering, maiming and raping in eastern Congo. The Prime Minister said he had spoken personally to President Kagame about it, but it obviously did not make much difference. Why is the Secretary of State not acting now to ensure that we are in no way supporting the Rwandan Government, who are supporting the M23 rebels?

Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is making some statements of fact; the reality is that we have a leaked report from the UN group of experts which makes some assertions about what may be happening on the ground. That is going through the UN sanctions committee. Bearing in mind the implications that the report may have on the aid programme in Rwanda, the right thing for us to do is to wait for the UN sanctions committee and, indeed, the UN Security Council to go through that full process and not jump the gun.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Like my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark), I also went on Project Umubano—twice—and learnt a lot about the genocide. Given that the world allowed the genocide to take place in Rwanda, does my right hon. Friend agree that the world, and especially the United Kingdom, has a responsibility to help Rwanda recover from it? The question is not about cutting aid to Rwanda, but about targeting it carefully.

Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right, but at the end of the day we need to be clear that many of the structures through which we can get change on the ground in Rwanda and alleviate poverty for the many millions who still suffer from it will ultimately also be part the Government systems there, which is why many donors have worked so closely with the Rwandan Government to pursue their development programmes. However, clearly he is right, given the history of Rwanda, and the work of the last Government, along with the work that this Government have undertaken with the Rwandan Government, has clearly been successful. It has been one of the most successful aid programmes we have had. Nevertheless, we will look carefully at the outcome of the UN process on the deeply concerning issues involving the M23 and eastern DRC.

Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Secretary of State’s predecessor, in giving evidence to the Select Committee on International Development, was asked whether he believed that the Rwandan Government had ever given practical support to the M23. He said he could not say, putting him at odds with the Prime Minister and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, who have called for an end to practical support. Where does this Secretary of State stand—with her Prime Minister and Foreign and Commonwealth Office or with her predecessor?

Justine Greening: I have to say that I will make my own decisions about what I think is happening on the ground when I take my decision about the future aid programme to Rwanda in December. I can assure the hon. Lady that I will look at what is happening then, not at what has been happening in the past.

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Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the Secretary of State say a little more about the context of when this country ceased giving aid to the Ugandan Prime Minister’s office in relation to some of the other donor nations that were providing aid?

Justine Greening: We took steps to stop our money going to the office of the Prime Minister before we had any evidence of a problem per se, particularly in relation to our own money. Other donors took steps once it became clear that there had been fraud and corruption with their money, so I like to think that we acted pre-emptively. The forensic audit that is currently under way will give us the information we need to understand what has happened with UK taxpayers’ money and what steps we may be able to take should any money prove not to have been disbursed in the way we wanted.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): When I was in Kinshasa in September, I made it clear to the high commission that more than 30 Members of Parliament whom I had met there had independently raised this issue as a serious concern that was disrupting their programme of government. Because of the amount of money we have invested in the Congo basin forest fund and other work that the Secretary of State’s Department is doing to great effect in the region, giving aid in Rwanda that undermines the capacity of the aid in those programmes to deliver is a serious problem.

Justine Greening: I have a huge amount of respect for the hon. Gentleman’s work in the area of international development, but we cannot escape the fact that much of the work that has been done alongside the Rwandan Government has been extremely successful in lifting people out of poverty. That is why I need to ensure that all the proper processes are gone through, and that I look at all the separate facts and evidence bases when I reach my decision in December. I can assure him that I will approach that exercise incredibly thoughtfully, and I will make an announcement to the House once I have reached a conclusion.

Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): Will the Secretary of State not forget, in the midst of all the politicking, that the militia in the eastern Congo have an horrific record of sexual violence? Can she assure me that, while trying to square the circle that the Opposition are creating about all the money being spent in Rwanda and Uganda, the steps being taken will be monitored for gender-based violence in the Kivus? What measures are in place to trigger early intervention to protect the local communities wherever possible?

Justine Greening: DFID Uganda is very aware of the humanitarian issues that are arising as a result of the violence that has restarted in the Kivus in recent days. Alongside other partners, we will play our role in ensuring that we provide all the support that we can to the victims of sexual violence. We have focused on playing our role in that way in countries such as Syria as well, and we will certainly want to do that in the DRC as appropriate.

Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Further to the question posed by the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), will the Secretary

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of State tell us more about the action that is being taken to put the leadership of M23 where they deserve to be: facing charges at the International Criminal Court in relation to the conscription of child soldiers and other war crimes?

Justine Greening: That is something that our Government have raised at the United Nations. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the group of experts’ report contains a number of aspects relating to M23, and those are being considered by the UN Sanctions Committee right now. Once the committee has completed that process, I am sure that it will give its assessment of whose involvement has led to these crises, and of the implications for the action that needs to be taken. We have raised this matter at the UN and we are determined that people should be brought to book, when appropriate, and have international law brought against them.

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): There has been an international arrest warrant against the leader of the M23 since 2006. What steps have been taken over the past six years to bring that horrific person to justice?

Justine Greening: I have no doubt that there have been significant efforts, and I can write to my hon. Friend with further details. The areas in which those people are being tracked down are often hundreds of thousands of square miles across. The lack of success in tracking them down has clearly had profound consequences in relation to the M23 being able to cause this kind of havoc, chaos and violence.

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The M23 rebels, who the United Nations experts say are being directly supported by named individuals in the Rwandan Government, are

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attacking Goma as we speak. Far from our Government “jumping the gun”, as the Secretary of State unfortunately said a moment ago, is it not the case that people are dying as a result of their providing finance to the Rwandan Government? What will it take for her to make the decision to stop that aid, given that it might be used to support those M23 rebels?

Justine Greening: I have set out very clearly, both today and to the International Development Committee, the measured and thoughtful approach we will take in respect of any future disbursements of budget support to the Rwandan Government. The hon. Gentleman is commenting on a leaked report, which may or may not be the final report that the UN sanctions committee publishes. I think we should wait for that, and in the meantime I can assure him that our Government are playing their role in working diplomatically to encourage all those involved in the violence to bring it to an end.

Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The Secretary of State was at pains to say that the M23 had not taken the city of Goma, but local reports overnight suggest that a large refugee camp to the east of the city, which is a home for 30,000 people, was being evacuated urgently with people streaming to the west. This is a very serious and large-scale humanitarian crisis. Will the right hon. Lady urgently review what can be done to minimise the suffering of innocent people in and around the city of Goma?

Justine Greening: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we in DFID are looking at what we can do to play our role in any humanitarian support that needs to be provided for those people.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Secretary of State and to colleagues.

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Points of Order

4.6 pm

Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week’s elections for police and crime commissioners had two remarkable characteristics that should concern the House. On the one hand, they had the lowest participation in any national election ever, and on the other hand, they had the highest number of rejected, spoilt ballot papers ever, when 120,000 people who thought themselves disfranchised wrote powerful, vigorous and emphatic messages on their ballot papers. Should not those messages be sampled and reported to this House?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that neither turnout nor the number of spoiled ballot papers is in any way a matter for the Chair. It does not constitute a matter of order, and I would not want the hon. Gentleman, who is an extremely dextrous and experienced parliamentarian, to get those who are about to become new Members into bad habits at an excessively early stage. He has made his own point in his own way and will find ways to persevere with this matter if he so wishes.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. Members should calm down. It is impossible for me not to see the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), but because he is so enthusiastic, he will have to curb his enthusiasm. I call Mr David Winnick.

Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As you will know, there is considerable concern about the violence inflicted on Gaza by Israeli forces and about the civilian casualties. In the last few days, we have seen pictures of young children who have burned to death. It is therefore important for this House to debate the issue as quickly as possible. Will you confirm, Mr Speaker, that the Foreign Secretary will make a statement on Tuesday on this very urgent humanitarian issue?

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I am happy to confirm that I have been advised that the Foreign Secretary will indeed make a statement on these matters tomorrow. Ordinarily, hon. and right hon. Members might have hoped for a statement today, but it would be fair to say that, as some will know and others might not, the Foreign Secretary is in Brussels today, discussing these very matters. At the first opportunity tomorrow, the House will expect to hear from the right hon. Gentleman, and I feel sure that the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) will be in his customary place.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was trying to curb my enthusiasm to make sure that Ministers of the Crown come to this House to make statements that they should make to us rather than either leaking them to the press or launching them without the House’s participation. Only last week, when the House was not sitting, the Secretary of State for Education launched his Department’s

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review—a major review of the Department for Education, including proposals for a savage cut of up to 1,000 jobs and the closure of regional offices. This is a major restructuring of the Department for Education, so this report should have been launched by the Secretary of State to this House. It is disrespectful to us and to the education community to do it in any other way.

Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. My understanding was that the Government had announced a review rather than a specific policy. However, my expectation that Ministers make key policy announcements first to the House is both well known and unchanged. If the hon. Gentleman, who on the strength of his 33 years’ uninterrupted service knows these conventions, is dissatisfied with the Secretary of State, I have a keen sense that he will display his keenness to pursue this matter for days and days and days.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe that the Secretary of State for International Development said a few moments ago that she had made a statement—or the Department had issued a statement—on the decision to stop aid to India. I believe that that is not the case, and it is possible that it needs to be corrected.

Mr Speaker: I think I am right in saying that there was a written ministerial statement on the matter. I do not think that any erroneous statement has been made, but the hon. Gentleman, who is a former Minister himself, will know that Ministers are always responsible for the statements that they make to the House.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s point of order is on an entirely unrelated matter, and I believe it to be so.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As a Member of Parliament in this place, I sometimes get tired of the endless sniping and backbiting, and being surrounded by rats and snakes and even cockroaches, so I have given up viewing “I’m a Celebrity…Get Me Out of Here!”. However, I have now received a letter from a constituent of another hon. Member, which begins:

“May I apologise for writing to you rather than my own constituency MP, but living in Mid Bedfordshire I do not seem to have an MP at the moment.”

What advice can you offer, Mr. Speaker? Or perhaps the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) has left a forwarding address in the jungle with you.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. My advice to him is that he should begin by contacting Members representing constituencies neighbouring Mid Bedfordshire to ascertain whether any of them feels able to provide assistance.

If there are no further points of order, will Members wishing to take their seats please come to the Table?

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New Members

The following Member made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:

Andrew Sawford, for Corby.

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath required by law:

Stephen John Doughty, for Cardiff South and Penarth.

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Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Second Reading

4.15 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I am delighted to bring the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill from the other place to this House. Its purpose is to establish a groceries code adjudicator. The adjudicator will oversee the large supermarkets’ compliance with the groceries supply code of practice and will have the power to impose sanctions against retailers that do not treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly as required by the code.

I have been encouraged by the Bill’s passage through the other place. All parties showed a real common purpose and commitment to improve market conditions. We are pleased to have accepted amendments that have made the Bill stronger, in particular on allowing a fairer allocation of the levy so supermarkets that behave badly will pay more. We have also accepted changes to ensure that financial penalties can be brought in more swiftly.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Minister give way?

Jo Swinson: I will, as I am aware that I am now addressing one of the main topics of debate.

Mr Sheerman: The Minister will be aware that many constituents have written to their Members of Parliament about the size of the fines imposed on supermarkets that do not co-operate, and how quickly they can be levied. Did she get the general impression from the debate in the other place that this is a weak instrument with which to take on some of the most well-organised, monopolistic organisations in the country?

Jo Swinson: I do not agree with that characterisation. I think the adjudicator will be able to make a real difference. We have put a range of tools at its disposal, which, particularly given the importance that supermarkets attach to their brand reputation, I believe will have a real effect. I will discuss this issue in more detail later, but it is worth bearing in mind that the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee looked at this and recognised that the arguments are finely balanced. I acknowledge that Members will, perhaps, come at the issue from different sides of the argument, but I am confident that the Government’s position is the right one. I intend to give a brief overview of the Bill and the role of the adjudicator, and I will then set out in detail why we believe financial penalties should initially be a reserve power.

The Bill is important on two counts. It promotes growth and a competitive food and groceries sector, and it helps to ensure a fair deal for suppliers. In the current economic climate, it is more essential than ever that our groceries sector is allowed to grow and thrive. Therefore, Government, suppliers and retailers need to work together to ensure that the marketplace between supermarkets and suppliers is fair, open and competitive.

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Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): I greatly welcome this Bill and I hope it makes good progress through the House. The Minister emphasises that it will help suppliers, but it is important to get across the fact that it will also help consumers by ensuring that a range of suppliers stays in the market and that there is variety and good security of supply.

Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are introducing the adjudicator because of the benefits it will bring in dealing with potential issues of consumer detriment, as identified in the Competition Commission report.

I believe that our large supermarkets can be a very good thing for consumers, for employment and for our economy. In the vast majority of cases, they treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly. Unfortunately, as the House will be aware, the Competition Commission’s 2008 report on the supply of groceries showed that in some cases large supermarkets were transferring excessive risks and costs to their suppliers. That included practices such as the retrospective varying of supply agreements to force suppliers to take on unexpected extra costs, which is why the Groceries (Supply Chain Practices) Market Investigation Order 2009 came into force in 2010. The order contains the groceries supply code of practice and requires the 10 largest retailers with an annual turnover of over £1 billion to incorporate the code in all their supply agreements. The code sets out a general principle that retailers must treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly and also contains more specific requirements on how retailers should deal with their suppliers.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Sometimes these commercial operators try to crowd out competitors using pretty dodgy means. When they are caught, they try to cover it up, which is why it is very important that schedule 2 is strengthened. The adjudicator may well ask for information from commercial operators, but I fear that the powers in the measure are nowhere near strong enough to be able to force operators to provide that information. They are not as strong, for instance, as the civil provisions under Norwich Pharmacal arrangements.

Jo Swinson: If information is not provided to the groceries code adjudicator, that will constitute an offence, which is a strong power for the adjudicator. We can discuss the details in Committee, but we do have the power that is required in the Bill and its schedules.

Chris Bryant: But one problem is that big corporations quite deliberately hide things from adjudicators. Unless an adjudicator knows precisely what to ask for, corporations may end up not handing it over, which is why it is vital that a full disclosure requirement, if necessary, is available to the adjudicator. Will the Minister consider that?

Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman is making a distinct bid to be on the Bill Committee, and the usual channels will have taken note. I am sure he would like nothing more than to consider this measure and the schedules in intricate detail. I believe that the power available to the adjudicator is sufficient, and we will make sure that the right individual is in that position with a good understanding of the markets with which they are dealing. That person is therefore unlikely to have the wool pulled over their eyes, and will know the right questions to ask.

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Several hon. Members rose

Jo Swinson: I should like to make a little progress, but I will then give way to hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), in particular, has a strong track record on this issue.

To make it clear to the House, the code can be privately enforced by suppliers as a matter of contract, but the Competition Commission considered that that the code would also require public enforcement by an ombudsman or adjudicator. The Government agree that businesses on both sides need to be confident that breaches of the code will be fairly investigated and that, if necessary, appropriate enforcement action can be taken against a retailer who breaches the code.

Suppliers must be able to come forward without fear of retribution from supermarkets, and retailers need to be confident that they will be treated fairly in any resulting investigation by the adjudicator as a public authority. The Bill will establish an independent groceries code adjudicator as a statutory office holder to help to ensure that retailers comply with the code, and accordingly treat their suppliers lawfully and fairly.

Several hon. Members rose

Jo Swinson: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, who has worked on this issue for many years.

Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I very much welcome the measure, and I am content that it has the investigatory powers to address the issue raised a moment ago. Nevertheless, the code has been in place since 4 February 2010, so the question inevitably arises of whether the adjudicator has the power to take evidence on the period between 4 February 2010 and the establishment of that post.

Jo Swinson: The adjudicator will be in place and, as has been outlined, the code is already legally binding. The adjudicator can look at the evidence submitted, and will undertake more investigations. It is up to them to gather evidence on the basis of suggestions that things are not working as they should, and require supermarkets to comply with their legal responsibility.

Several hon. Members rose

Jo Swinson: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), and then to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman).

Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Those of us who are concerned about fair trade for farmers greatly welcome the Bill. It attempts to correct an imbalance in the marketplace, but it is surely not the only way in which we need to do that, as I am sure my hon. Friend will agree. In particular, is it not just as important to strengthen farmers’ hands through a greater export market and through more research and development so that they can punch at an equal weight with supermarkets?

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Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend makes a couple of important points and I know that he is an assiduous campaigner on behalf of farmers in his constituency. He will be delighted that our hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who is responsible for farming, will sum up the debate tonight. He will be able to outline some of the actions the Government are taking to ensure that farmers are empowered.

The other point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, which is important, is that we must be clear about expectations. The groceries code adjudicator will, I think, be widely welcomed by the various parties in this House, but is not in itself a panacea. It is being introduced for a specific purpose on which there is much agreement, but there are obviously many issues that it does not cover and that will need to be addressed through other means. The Government are committed to taking those actions.

George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I strongly welcome the measure and commend my hon. Friend and those on the Government Front Bench. I encourage them to get the Bill through this House as quickly as possible, because it will be a huge relief to many farmers in my constituency, particularly in the dairy sector. As someone who used to work for the National Farmers Union, I know how long many of us have campaigned for this measure. However, as the measure is in fact a schedule relating to an order under the Enterprise Act 2002 rather than a statute, will she assure us that the code is mandatory and will be entirely legally enforceable by the adjudicator?

Jo Swinson: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and for his support for the Bill. The code is already legally enforceable by suppliers should they take legal action, but yes, it will also be legally enforceable by the adjudicator, who will make recommendations to supermarkets, which will recognise that they have a legal duty to comply with the code as it is. If the adjudicator thinks that they are not complying with the code, I suspect that that will be taken as a clear sign that they need to change their behaviour.

Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Will the hon. Lady give way?

Jo Swinson: I will certainly give way to the Chair of the Business, Skills and Innovation Committee.

Mr Bailey: I thank the hon. Lady; I recognise that she has given way several times already. I delayed my intervention to see whether she would give the answer I was looking for in response to somebody else.

One of the recommendations of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills was that evidence be allowable from trade associations and other third parties. In the other place, the Minister gave that specific assurance and we welcomed that as a Committee. However, I cannot find anything in the Bill that spells it out. All I can find is clause 15(10), which gives the Secretary of State the right to insert after clause 4 proposed new section 4A, which under subsection (2) will enable the adjudicator to consider any appropriate information. Is that the legal base that underlines the right of the adjudicator to

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take evidence from a third party? If so, can the adjudicator do that before the two-yearly review specified as the basis for the Secretary of State’s introduction of it?

Jo Swinson: I will happily confirm the reference in that clause:

“When carrying out an investigation the Adjudicator may consider any information that it seems appropriate to consider and is not limited to considering the information mentioned in subsection (1)”—

subsection (1), of course, lists a range of places from which information could be provided. The point of that phrasing is to ensure that the adjudicator has flexibility in considering information from whatever source. That includes, but is not limited to, information from trade associations, as the Chair of the Select Committee mentions, from a whistleblower, or others who might have concerns or evidence of malpractice about compliance with the code. We do have—

Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Will the Minister give way on that point?

Jo Swinson: I am still responding to the earlier question, but if the hon. Gentleman will have a little patience I will come to his intervention shortly.

On the other point raised by the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), there will obviously be a regular review of the adjudicator. That is appropriate in ensuring that it functions as it should and that any necessary changes can be made, but we will not prevent the adjudicator from properly considering information before the initial review is produced. I want to make a little progress and then I will take an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer).

The adjudicator will be funded by a levy from the 10 largest retailers and will have the power to investigate breaches and to impose sanctions against supermarkets found to have breached the code. Some Members have previously criticised the Bill as being anti-business. What is anti-business about ensuring that the grocery market works as well as it can, without being distorted by anti-competitive and unfair practices?

Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): On that point—

Jo Swinson: I will make a little progress, and then I will give way.

The direct or indirect suppliers who are among the potential beneficiaries of the Bill include fresh food intermediaries and food and drink manufacturers. That is why the Bill is supported by major business groups, including the Food and Drink Federation, the British Brands Group, the Association of Convenience Stores and the National Farmers Union. A fair market is one in which suppliers and supermarkets are free to innovate, expand and offer the widest possible choice to the consumer without fear of being disadvantaged by unfair dealings elsewhere.

Mr Spencer: The Minister refers to blacklisting, when suppliers will be disadvantaged by coming forward. Can she reassure the House about how she will achieve that when, for example, the number of suppliers in the

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east midlands for a specific vegetable will be limited, and it will be quite easy to identify which one is supplying that product to a particular supermarket?

Jo Swinson: Clause 18 provides that there is a duty on the adjudicator to protect confidentiality. That goes beyond not allowing publication of the name of the individual or supplier making the complaint. As my hon. Friend rightly says, there are circumstances where an investigation could, in effect, give away who had made the complaint. In that circumstance it would be possible for the adjudicator to undertake a slightly wider investigation in terms of geographic scope or the types of vegetable being investigated, so that it would not be possible to identify which individual or supplier had come forward and made a complaint.

Peter Luff: This welcome legislation, like that which introduced the Gangmasters Licensing Authority some years ago, proves that effective and targeted regulation can help consumers and all those who work in supplying the food industry, but I am sure the Cabinet Office will have thought about deregulatory measures as well, as a quid pro quo for this regulatory measure. In that spirit, will the Minister tell us what progress is being made on the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, which would also help consumers and those who supply the industry?

Jo Swinson: Consultation is taking place on that measure. My hon. Friend the Minister of State who is summing up the debate as the Minister with responsibility for farming will, I am sure, be able to enlighten the House further on that point.

What will the adjudicator do? The adjudicator’s role is to investigate large retailers and hold them to account if they have broken the groceries code. He or she will also be able to act as an arbitrator to resolve private disputes between suppliers and large supermarkets, as the groceries supply order envisages. Aside from these main roles, the adjudicator will have a number of other functions. These are to publish guidance on when and how investigations will proceed and how enforcement powers will be used, to advise large retailers and suppliers on the groceries code, to recommend changes to the groceries code to the Office of Fair Trading, to arbitrate individual disputes between large retailers and the direct suppliers, as mentioned, or to appoint another person to do so, and to report annually on his or her work, which will be laid before Parliament.

Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The Minister knows that the adjudicator cannot do any of those things until they have published the guidance under clause 12. The adjudicator can take up to six months before publishing the guidance. Have the Government any intention of bringing that date forward so that the adjudicator can get down to this important business as soon as possible?

Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman expresses an understandable desire to make sure that the role of adjudicator can be up and running as soon as possible. We all share that desire. I am sure, however, that he would not want the publication of the guidance to be rushed. Although I would be happy if the adjudicator, once in place, decides that the full six months is not

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needed and the guidance can be published earlier, it would not be wise to force a faster timetable if that was not felt to be possible.

Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): My hon. Friend mentioned recommendations on possible changes that the adjudicator could make to the code’s remit. Will she say a little more about the extent of those changes because, as she will be aware, many primary producers across the country are really anxious?

Jo Swinson: It is not envisaged that such changes would necessarily be wide-ranging, because the role of adjudicator is based on the original Competition Commission reports and the findings of detriment to consumers resulting from excessive risks and costs being passed on to suppliers. If there are related issues that the groceries code adjudicator feels warrant a slight change to the code, he or she can make that recommendation, but that is the remit for what such changes would be. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend.

To add to a point raised earlier, there will be no restrictions on who can complain to the adjudicator, and the complainant’s identity will be kept in strict confidence. That means the adjudicator can receive information from any source, including direct and indirect suppliers, famers, whistleblowers within large retailers, and trade associations representing their members. That change was very much welcomed in the other place because it is important, and there is a genuine concern about a climate of fear among some suppliers. The change that has been made deals with that concern.

If the adjudicator, as a result of the evidence they have been provided with, has reasonable grounds to suspect that the code has been breached, they will be able to start an investigation and gather more information from relevant retailers and others. If the investigation finds that a retailer has broken the code, the adjudicator will have tough sanctions, for example the so-called “name and shame” powers to require retailers to publish information about a breach in the trade or national press. We think that those sanctions are powerful enough to uphold the code. However, if that proves not to be the case, the Bill allows the Secretary of State to grant the adjudicator a power to impose financial penalties as well.

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I declare an interest as chair of the trustees of the Traidcraft Foundation, which represents producers from developing countries, who welcome and are very much in favour of this measure. I do not understand why fines will not be available from the start. There is quite a wide sense that, if the measure is to be effective, fines should be available from the start, not at some undetermined future date.