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and praised the

The Chief of the General Staff rightly highlighted the challenge of supporting personnel between tours, but it is important that we look at those issues in their full context. To sum up the shadow Secretary of State's contribution, it was General Dannatt who, when he was appointed to the Conservative Front Bench, explained that he had been asked to contribute to defence matters because the Leader of the Opposition had told him that the defence team lacked expertise. Having listened to the shadow Secretary of State's speech, I can say that that expertise still seems sadly to be lacking.

The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), who leads for the Scottish nationalists, asked why the MOD had spent £4.3 billion less than the population-based apportionment of defence spending to Scotland over the past five years. I have to say-he and I have debated this before-that his analysis fundamentally misunderstands how defence operates. We operate on a United Kingdom basis-that is the most effective way to do it-not on a country-by-country basis.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie), who leads for the Liberal Democrats, made several comments about the state of accommodation. Let me be clear-the Government have consistently been clear-that for decades there has been under-investment in the defence accommodation estate. This Government, through their commitments, are putting that right. Over the past two years we have upgraded the condition of 1,800 properties to the highest of the four standards. We are committed to upgrading a further 800 in this financial year, and 800 a year thereafter. This is not a Government who are speaking; this is a Government who are acting to improve the support to our military.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about Trident and nuclear disarmament. He gave scant credit to this Government's record on disarmament. We have reduced the explosive capability of our nuclear arsenal by 75 per cent. We have led the way internationally. We are rightly and objectively recognised as the most forward-leaning nuclear weapons state. To ignore that reality-the hon. Gentleman shakes his head-does not do him or his arguments any credit.

1 Mar 2010 : Column 715

My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) said that his speech in this debate might be his last. I pay tribute to the work that he has done, having occupied my post in the past, and to the significant contribution that he has made to defence matters. He rightly highlighted the dangers of an overtly party political and partisan approach to defence matters. Indeed, if we look at Afghanistan, the reality is that if the Conservatives had been in government since 2001, they would have acted little differently from how this party has acted, faced with that challenge. To suggest otherwise-to accentuate the difference, rather than highlighting common ground-risks undermining our mission in Afghanistan.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Salisbury (Robert Key) for his dedicated commitment to defence over many years. Nevertheless, he criticised our stewardship of the military covenant. That was unjustified and wrong, if one looks at the service Command Paper, the doubling of compensation to the most seriously injured personnel and the improvements in accommodation, and at the free further and higher education. Those are not the actions of a Government who are resiling from their responsibilities and their commitment towards the armed forces.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy), who has wide defence expertise and understanding, articulately outlined the improvements in the welfare package to service personnel that we have delivered, and for which I know she has argued.

The hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) asked about the Talisman system. Talisman is a route clearance system, and part of our solution to the problem of improvised explosive devices. It is being used in Afghanistan now and is at full operating capability, including in Operation Moshtarak. It is important to make that clear.

The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) made an interesting and well-thought-out contribution, but I disagreed with him when he allied it with the hon. Lady's contribution, making the accusation that the Lisbon treaty would bring about a European Union army. That is absolutely not true; indeed, nothing could be further from the truth. The treaty makes it clear that defence provision will

It makes no more sense to talk about the common security and defence policy as a European army than it does to talk about NATO as a transatlantic army or the European Union as a world army.

Mr. Jenkin: Will the carriers will be included in a Labour defence review?

Bill Rammell: We have made our commitment to the carriers abundantly clear, most particularly through the signing and the starting of the contracts last week.

Let me answer the serious question that the right hon. Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot) asked-he knows that I am committed to meeting him and his constituents-about whether we could be sure that both pilots involved in the Chinook crashes agreed on the route and the course of action taken. It is clear that those pilots took over the route that was programmed
1 Mar 2010 : Column 716
and planned, and took responsibility. Once they were in flight, the critical factor in determining whether they continued to be of that view was the action of making the waypoint change on the navigation system. That demonstrates that they were fully in control of the aircraft at that point. The issue is serious, and I understand his concerns. I look forward to discussing it with him and his constituents at that meeting in the near future.

We have had a good debate. As I said, there is more that unites us on defence than divides us. We are doing the right thing, and this Government have a strong record on defence. We have made unparalleled investment, and we should take that forward and support our armed forces.

Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.

The House divided: Ayes 208, Noes 277.
Division No. 89]
[6.59 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, David T. C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Huhne, Chris
Hunter, Mark

Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Mason, John
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Paice, Mr. James
Penning, Mike
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mr. Roger
Willis, Mr. Phil
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Philip Dunne and
Mr. John Baron

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Bain, Mr. William
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benton, Mr. Joe

Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mann, John

Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr. Gareth

Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Noes:

David Wright and
Mr. Dave Watts
Question accordingly negatived.
1 Mar 2010 : Column 717

1 Mar 2010 : Column 718

1 Mar 2010 : Column 719

1 Mar 2010 : Column 720

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added.

Question agreed to.

Main Q uestion, as amended, put and agreed to.


1 Mar 2010 : Column 721

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

[Relevant d ocument : The Ninth Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Counter-Terrorism Policy and Human Rights (Sixteenth Report): Annual Renewal of Control Orders Legislation 2010, HC 395 .]

7.15 pm

The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism (Mr. David Hanson): I beg to move,

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Will hon. Members please leave quickly and quietly, without having conversations that would be more appropriate outside the Chamber?

Mr. Hanson: The purpose of the order is to renew the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005. Sections 1 to 9 of this Act automatically expire after one year, unless renewed by an order subject to affirmative resolution by both Houses. The effect of the order will be to maintain the powers set out under the 2005 Act until the end of 10 March 2011. This will allow us, as the House will be aware, to continue to use control orders to tackle what I still believe is a threat posed to the public by suspected terrorists whom we can neither prosecute nor deport.

It is important at the start of the debate to remember why control orders are indeed necessary and need to be put in place. In recent years, there have been a number of potential threats, significant potential terrorist attacks and attempted attacks on our country, and, indeed, on other countries across the world. Those attacks and proposed potential attacks undermine the very fabric of our society and our values, leading potentially to the indiscriminate murder of innocent people.

Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): The Minister will be aware that concerns remain about the financial support provided to victims of terrorism as a result of overseas incidents. Will he take the opportunity to update the House on the Government's recent proposals and clarify whether they will apply in retrospect or start in January? A number of concerns have been raised by the families of people such as Will Pike, who was affected by terrorism in the Mumbai incident, and they are seeking urgent clarification on this very important issue.

Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I know that he takes a personal interest in this matter, and I appreciate that he has raised it not only today but on previous occasions. In the Crime and Security Public Bill Committee last week, I tabled a provision, which was accepted by the Committee, to establish the compensation scheme with effect from 18 January 2010-the date of Second Reading. If both Houses approve and Royal Assent is agreed, the scheme will operate with effect from that date for any potential future terrorist attacks. We obviously hope that there will not be any such attacks, but the provision will operate from that date.

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