Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1-19)
DEPARTMENT FOR
TRANSPORT
10 JUNE 2009
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon. Today, we
are considering the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report Improving
Road Safety for Pedestrians and Cyclists in Great Britain.
We welcome back Mr Robert Devereux, who is the Permanent Secretary
at the Department for Transport, and we welcome Mr Mike Fawcett,
who is the Head of the Road User Safety Division. Perhaps we can
look at international comparisons. If we turn to page 35 of the
Comptroller's Report and look at Figure 15, we see a figure there
usefully entitled, "Road deaths—international comparisons",
and we see that, whilst our record is quite good for road deaths
per 100,000 population where, I see, we are ranked fifth out of
24, if we go further down and we look at child pedestrian deaths
per 100,000 population, we see that we slip to 17 out of 24, which
really is not very good at all, Mr Devereux. Why are child pedestrian
deaths so much worse in Great Britain than in many other countries,
do you think?
Mr Devereux: I wonder if, before
we start, you would just let me at least acknowledge that this
subject, of all the ones I have been in front of you before on,
I just wanted to make sure that you accept my recognition of the
pain and grief that goes with this particular subject. I am sure
you will know of friends and constituents who have suffered from
this, and I have myself, and I do not think I want to spend the
entire afternoon going through all this without at least acknowledging
the pain that comes with this.
Q2 Chairman: That is why I asked
the question because it is obviously particularly what any parent,
and I am a parent, fears more than anything else. It is a particularly
horrible thing, a child pedestrian death, and that is why I take
a particular interest in anything to do with children obviously
and that is why I am asking the question really.
Mr Devereux: You quote the figures
which are indeed, as the NAO Report says, 2006 figures. The numbers
of child deaths are a reasonably volatile series and I think we
have just sent you a letter to show you where the 2007 figures
are. We were, as you can see, at 1.35 child deaths per 100,000
population in 2006 and the most recent data shows that that has
been reduced to 0.88 and we are second in position rather than
being 11th for child deaths. Sorry, it is child pedestrians you
were asking about and on child pedestrians we were at 0.62 and
we have reduced to 0.4 for 2007 and we are now ninth in the table.
That is, in part, because actually for each of these ones we go
on to the main road deaths per 100,000 population and the series
is relatively volatile, so our position in the international leagues
will move around a bit, but there is, as far as I can see, a substantial
improvement from 2006 to 2007.
Q3 Chairman: Mr Devereux, you are
referring to, and I want to ask you about this, a note which was
only sent to the Committee on Friday. It is dated 5 June from
Mr Mike Fawcett and it was not cleared with the audit team which
advises us. All the members of the Committee have now got this
letter, but it was sent very late and the whole point of these
hearings is that we have to work on agreed figures, but there
is something much worse than that, that we now look at these figures,
which you allude to, and for child deaths per 100,000 population,
as you have just said, we move up to nine, but these figures are
completely inconsistent and incomplete. Figure 15, which I was
quoting from and which this hearing is based on, is based on full
figures for 24 nations. The figure that you have just referred
to only refers to 19 nations and, therefore, a lot of these countries
have clearly not reported, so you have alluded to, in your defence
which I entirely deprecate, I have to say, a document which arrived
late, was not cleared with the audit team and which is incomplete
and inconsistent.
Mr Devereux: Well, I apologise
that it arrived late. When I found that we had the information,
I thought it would be better for you to have it than not to have
it.
Q4 Chairman: Well, if you are going
to send us information, let us have at least complete information.
How can we possibly adduce any useful benefit from figures which
only refer to 19 out of 24 nations?
Mr Devereux: With permission,
I sent it in because, for many of the other columns in that table,
they are complete and, as you will see—
Q5 Chairman: Yes, but I was asking
you, Mr Devereux, about child pedestrian deaths and I was very
fair to you. I said right at the beginning of the question, which
is why I did it, that, if we are looking at road deaths per 100,000
population, according to this Figure 15, we seem to perform fairly
well, and indeed I see that actually there is some consistency
there because, if we look at your latest document, we see that
we are number six and in the main document we are number five.
I was not asking you about that. I was asking you specifically
about what is most distressing to many people which is the child
deaths. In your defence, you have alluded to a document which
arrived late, was incomplete and inconsistent and I would, therefore,
ask you why you referred to it?
Mr Devereux: The one factor which
I feel is true about the document is that the number for the UK
is about a third lower than it is in the table you have quoted
from.
Q6 Chairman: But it is meaningless.
I am sorry, it is completely meaningless because all these countries
have not put in their figures. The fact is that, if you look at
that, they only go up to 19, whereas Figure 15 has 24 nations.
When they all put in their figures, we might move down again or
we might move up. That is why these hearings are on the basis
of documents which are sent to the National Audit Office and which
are agreed by an independent assessor, namely the National Audit
Office, otherwise these hearings become worthless.
Mr Devereux: I was alluding to—
Q7 Chairman: So my question, Mr Devereux,
I will ask you once again: why is it that our record on child
deaths is so much worse than in other developed countries? I am
now repeating the question, and I think I have established that
the document that you sent us late is worthless, so I now want
to repeat the question and I would like to have an answer please.
Mr Devereux: The reason why we
perform less well in this is because there are circumstances in
the UK which are different from some of the circumstances in other
countries.
Q8 Chairman: Like what?
Mr Devereux: Well, for example,
where our housing is located, where some of our families live
relative to bigger roads and that the way in which the economic
geography of the country works is not the same as for some of
the other countries in this list. For example, more of our children
are walking and playing on streets than in some of the other countries.
Q9 Chairman: Well, France is a busy
country, Germany, the Netherlands is a very over-populated country.
Some countries, and I know that you perhaps cannot compare us
to Finland, but some countries, I think Finland, have no deaths
at all. I agree that we are a very busy, very big and perhaps
over-populated country, but it seems to me that there is something
wrong here.
Mr Devereux: Well, I am not going
to accept that it is absolutely right; I cannot possibly do that
from the opening statement I made. We are working with a range
of factors when it comes to children in this country which are
different from some of the factors in other countries, and that
is an explanation why, when you look at ranked tables and international
comparisons, you will find us in a different place. The overall
figures, and that includes children, show that overall we are
in a better place now and—
Q10 Chairman: So what I would hope
you would say is that this is really a matter of national priority
now. One death of a child is too many. I want you, Mr Devereux,
to say to this Committee, "I take this extremely seriously
and I am now going to get a grip on this, and this is what I plan
to do and I have the levers", or you might say, "Actually,
this is fundamentally a responsibility for local government, so
it is very difficult for me", but we would like to know.
Mr Devereux: I do take it very
seriously and I believe we do have a grip on it. It is not acceptable
at the level it is at, but we now have had two successful road
safety strategies in a row; we have had very substantial reductions
across the piece, including for child pedestrians, though it is
not at an acceptable level; and we have put out a consultation
document for a third strategy that runs 2010 to 2020 and which
includes extensive further reductions in child deaths and serious
injuries, including a reduction in the rate of pedestrian deaths.
So, yes, we do have policies in place that will tackle this. If
you ask me specifically about international comparisons, I have
given you some reasons why we are different when it comes to some
aspects for children, I believe.
Q11 Chairman: Well, if you want to
send a note in to us, we are very happy.[1]
The purpose of this is not to catch you out on a major point or
anything, but the purpose is to try and get useful information
from you so that we can make a difference; we are trying to help.
Mr Devereux: I understand that.
Q12 Chairman: Figure 6 on page 15:
why are children from deprived areas, Mr Devereux, still four
times more likely to be killed or seriously injured?
Mr Devereux: For a variety of
reasons. A great number of things are worse in the deprived areas
than they are in other areas and one of the things which I have
already alluded to in the international comparison story was about
the extent to which children are unsupervised, they are on roads
and they are not being watched beyond when they come back from
school, typically. The highest rates of child casualties are in
the 12- to 15-year-old age, it is secondary schools when people
are coming back and in some communities they are as likely to
be on the street as they are anywhere else. That is a principal
reason why the international comparison figures—
Q13 Chairman: Again another priority
for you because it is very alarming, is it not?
Mr Devereux: It is a priority.
Q14 Chairman: Four times more.
Mr Devereux: It is a priority
and you will, I guess, be aware of the way in which we have sought
to focus local government's attention on the things which are
most important in each locality, and in the system of local area
agreements, there are specific targets in there which local government
can choose, and I think that it is 89[2]
authorities have chosen to focus on this as one of the things
they want to do.
Q15 Chairman: There is always a number
of questions I have to try and get to in order to help us write
our Report, but, because we have to spend so much time dealing
with the non-factual basis of the note that you gave us late,
I have now got to stop, but I will ask you one more question and
that relates to paragraph 2.18 on page 24, which is an important
one; it is education, training and publicity measures. This is
what you are largely responsible for and you have a budget of
over £36 million. Obviously, we want to encourage people
to walk and cycle more, I would have thought, but how are we going
to achieve that when only one in five people agrees that the roads
are safer now than they were five years ago?
Mr Devereux: Chairman, we have
a range of things that we have been doing over the last two years
and with more to come, so let me run through some of them. We
are investing £140 million in Cycling England, which is a
body which is undertaking a number of activities around cycling,
for example, and, in particular, ensuring that we have 500,000
children trained to the National Standard to use bicycles safely
on the road by 2012, and are ensuring that there are investments
being made in safer routes to schools. We have safer cycling routes
now available to get to 500 schools and we are targeting 1,000
schools being on safe cycle routes by 2011. We have invested money
in sustainable travel towns, sustainable cities for cycling, and
each of these things is actually producing an environment in which
both cycling and walking—
Chairman: I did not actually ask you
that. Mr Devereux, it does help in these hearings if you make
some attempt to answer the question that is put to you. I did
not ask you what you had done. What I was asking you was: how
would you get people to walk and cycle more when only one in five
people agrees with the statement that the roads are safer now
than they were five years ago? However, there is no point in going
on because Mr Curry wants to ask about cycling as well, so I will
ask Mr Curry to carry on.
Q16 Mr Curry: Mr Devereux, we all
look forward to Lord Adonis doing a tour of Britain by bike or
walking from John O'Groats to Land's End and reporting back to
the House. We are all delighted at the success of British Olympians
in the cycling events in the recent Olympic Games, but why do
you think so many cyclists think they are still competing in the
Olympic Games when they are on the roads of Britain?
Mr Devereux: I ought to declare
that I am a cyclist, so—
Q17 Mr Curry: And I have a bike,
but that is different.
Mr Devereux: I am a cyclist and
I come to work on a bike, so I know what you mean by "competing".
How do I confess to competing? Some of the things I have just
been going through with the Chairman about what we have been trying
to do to make the environment within which cyclists can feel safer
are exactly—
Q18 Mr Curry: No, you have got the
wrong question, I am sorry. Why are cyclists such irresponsible
and arrogant road-users? The only time I have been knocked down
in my life was by a cyclist going like a bat out of hell outside
the House of Commons, dressed like Darth Vader, as they all do!
Many people think that cyclists are hugely irresponsible, that
they do not take any notice of the red lights, they think that
road traffic cones are not for them, it is very competitive and
that they are dangerous.
Mr Devereux: There are, without
doubt, some elements of the cycling community who are in that
position and there are equally, I imagine, rather more people
who are far more dangerous drivers as well. The population is
not homogeneous, as you well know, and cyclists—
Q19 Mr Curry: If a cyclist or any
driver of a car drove his car like cyclists ride their bikes,
there would be nobody left on the roads of Britain at all.
Mr Devereux: Sorry, you are assuming
that all cyclists cycle the way the dangerous cyclist who went
past you—
1 Ev 18 Back
2
Note by Witness: 49 have chosen NI47; 3 have chosen NI48.
Of these Wirral chose both. So it is 51 authorities. Back
|
