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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 170-ii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES, SCIENCE & SKILLS
Monday 9 February 2009 WES STREETING, ALEX BOLS, ROB PARK and LISA CARSON CARRIE DONAGHY, RICKY CHOTAI, LUCY HOPKINS, ARNOLD SARFO-KANTANKA, JAMES WILLIAMSON and JOANNA GREENSILL
LUCY DAVIDSON, KEN HARRIS, GEMMA GEROME, LUKE POLLARD, ANAND RAJA and STEVE TOPAZIO Evidence heard in Public Questions 122 - 271
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Innovation, Universities, Science & Skills Committee on Monday 9 February 2009 Members present Mr Phil Willis, in the Chair Mr Tim Boswell Dr Ian Gibson Dr Evan Harris Dr Brian Iddon Mr Gordon Marsden Ian Stewart Graham Stringer ________________
Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Wes Streeting, President, National Union of Students (NUS), Alex Bols, Head of Education and Quality, NUS; Rob Park, Caring Responsibilities Officer and Acting Secretary to Council, Birkbeck Students' Union; and Lisa Carson, President of the Open University Students Association, gave evidence.
Chairman: Could I welcome very much indeed our first student panel, student representative bodies, to our inquiry on students in universities. Some of my colleagues have interests to declare, so I will allow them to do so. Mr Boswell: I would like to declare my interest as a member of the Board of Governors of UIG in Cardiff. We have, as one of my colleagues, the student representative Adam Painter, who makes an outstanding contribution and it is a very good relationship. Can I also declare my absence, because I shall have to go to fulfil another parliamentary duty between about 4.30 and 5.00, so I may catch the beginning of you and the panels which we are having afterwards, but thank you for coming. Dr Iddon: I declare that I am a member of the University College Union, visiting Professor at Liverpool University, member of the External Advisory Board at Manchester University School of Chemistry. There is something else I have missed, but it cannot be important. It is the same declaration as I made last time, Chairman. Dr Gibson: I am an honorary Professor at UDA and I have relative experience in politics, biology, international development and something else that I have now just forgotten. Ian Stewart: We have got to do all this formal stuff so that it goes on the record. I am Ian Stewart, currently registered as a post-graduate student at Manchester, self-funded, and I am an Honorary Fellow at Salford University, and I am interested in Manchester United! Q122 Chairman: Thank you. Could we welcome our first panel today, Wes Streeting, the President of the National Union of Students, welcome to you, Wes, to Alex Bols, the Head of Education and Quality at NUS, welcome, Rob Park, Caring Responsibilities Officer - that sounds good, does it not? - and Acting Secretary to Council, Birkbeck Students' Union, welcome to you, Rob, and last but by no means least Lisa Carson, the President of the Open University Students Association. I wonder if I could start with you, Wes? What makes a good university experience? Could you be as brief as possible with your answers. Mr Streeting: What makes a good university experience? Well, I think it's one that manages expectations in advance, it meets the expectations which have been set out for students. I think it's one that stretches students but at the same time supports them throughout their courses. It has learning facilities which meet the expectations which were set out. It has regular and handy contact with a range of staff, support staff and academic staff, at the institution and ultimately prepares those students for graduation to further study or for the world of employment, confident and articulate in the skills and experience they have gained, ready to take on the challenges of the rest of their lives. Q123 Mr Boswell: That was very comprehensive. Thank you. Could I just take you up specifically on the communication point? In your experience and across the range of institutions you represent is that cardinally important, does it vary a lot and could it be improved, communications, staff/student in particular? Mr Streeting: I think it matters enormously, actually, and I am glad you asked because there is a lot of attention in the national press on the issue of contact hours with staff at institutions, and I think that is only part of the story. Sure, quantity is important, but I think the quality of that experience matters very much more. The student experience research we published last term and sent in to the Committee identifies that students do want more contact with their support staff and with their academic staff, not least in terms of the area of feedback, for example, which is another area often seen as a source of concern. I don't believe at the moment students are getting the quality of contact they would expect in too many cases. I know from our own research that on feedback, for example, 25 per cent of students cited they do receive verbal feedback on their assessment, but 71 per cent actually want it. So I hope that as the inquiry progresses and institutions are looking at how they can continue to enhance the quality of experience of their institutions they might look at how their academic staff are currently deployed and employed and think about how their time could be put to different uses to enhance the experience by having greater direct contact with their students. Q124 Chairman: I am going to come on to that very issue later. I wonder if, Lisa and Rob, I can bring you in here? You work with a lot of part-time students and mature students. What is a good university experience for you? Rob, do you want to start? Mr Park: Yes, thank you, Chairman. Flexibility is the first thing, particularly with more mature students and part-time students who are juggling care and responsibilities, full-time jobs, and also if you are travelling a long distance onto a campus, and obviously Lisa will talk more about the distance learning aspects of the student experience. It is flexibility and a varied extra-curricula access to new skills. Q125 Chairman: Lisa, in terms of yourself, what is your response there? Ms Carson: To me, a university experience is about changing your life. Now, that can happen in many ways. Q126 Chairman: It sounds a bit grand that, does it not? Ms Carson: It sounds grand, but it does have an impact on what you do and it is the whole experience rather than just a small offering of a course or anything like that. It is the overall impact on the individual, but to get there, certainly for the distance learner, which is where I am coming from, the quality of your teaching and the quality of the educational experience is obviously the thing. Because you don't have that contact, the same type of contact, actually having the quality of contact and quality of materials is going to be extremely important. Q127 Chairman: I find this quite difficult to grasp because both your universities are world leaders in terms of distance learning, part-time learning, and yet you have said, Rob, in terms of your evidence to us that you want more student engagement. How do you get more student engagement when you are doing most of your work over the internet? What does that mean? Mr Park: For Birkbeck College about two-thirds of our students are distance learning, although they do have a requirement to come into the campus once a week. More student engagement comes from both the students' representative body itself in terms of how views of students are being communicated to the institution but also, vitally, it has got to come from the student support services run by the institution itself, notably things like students' finance. For instance, if someone is a part-time student and they are self-employed they may have a variable income and at the start of their course they will be paying, let us say, their full part-time fee and would not be entitled to hardship funding. However, as that course progresses and their income, for instance, reduces they may not know that they have the right of access to financial hardship funding, so it is vital - Q128 Chairman: That is what you mean by "engagement"? Mr Park: Absolutely, yes. Q129 Chairman: So it is nothing to do with the actual interrelationship between professorial staff and the actual course materials, this is more about just existing at the university? Mr Park: For Birkbeck Students' Union, yes, it is, but we are operating on a federal structure of faculty so each super-school (as it will be from next year) will be doing the local engagement between professorial staff and student representatives. Q130 Chairman: All right. Alex, when students apply to any university one of the things which concerns us as a Committee and one of the things we want to look at during this inquiry is actually the experience they get in terms of what is on offer, and yet if you look at many prospectuses they does not say how many hours of teaching they will have, it does not say who will teach them or what they are going to be asked to do in terms of their commitment. It us just an utter free-for-all. Does this not indicate that students really are not bothered provided they get there and do the least amount of work and get out with the best quality degree? Mr Bols: I think it is certainly interesting, coming out of the student experience Wes referred to earlier, that actually students referred to the fact they have an awful lot of information when they are applying to university, particularly about accommodation and so on, but the area they particularly identified they wanted to get more information about was actually about their course, and that is things like reading lists, and so on. So actually I think students probably do want a bit more information about the academic side of that, but I think the key point, particularly in terms of something like contact hours, is looking at actually how that all fits together in terms of when they go to university they are getting an experience, certain outcomes - "learning outcomes" is the phrase which is used - which they expect to get at the end of that course or at the end of each module. In terms of something like contact hours it is not just as simple as saying, "Oh, yes, this course has more contact hours, therefore it is higher quality," it is about looking at the quality of that contact but also how those contact hours have been put together within the context of, "This is the outcome of the course." Q131 Chairman: Can I just stop you there because I just think this is verbiage really. When I apply to the Open University to do a course I know exactly what I am getting. I know how many hours I am expected to work, I know what the input will be in terms of staff input, I know what it will take to be assessed, but for most universities, including the Russell Group universities so let us not differentiate, who is going to teach me I think is quite an important issue and yet I do not know. They might have research stars who I never see, but I get, you know, sort of a student. Do you think we ought to put all that down? Should that be part of the contract when students apply for a university, that that is the contract they get? Mr Bols: I think it is certainly true that students want more information - Q132 Chairman: No, I am not asking you that. Do you think it should be a contractual agreement between a university and an individual student so that they know what it is they are going to get? Mr Streeting: Can I jump in on this point? Q133 Chairman: Why can't Alex answer that? He is supposed to be in charge of quality! Mr Streeting: Oh, I'm in charge of National Union - Q134 Chairman: You are in charge of everything! All right. Mr Streeting: I think you are absolutely right in terms of the thrust of your question, particularly when you have now got a mass higher education system and more diverse institutions designing and delivering the curriculum in very different ways. It is important that information is given out clearly and transparently to potential applicants, not least - Q135 Chairman: What is the answer to my question? Mr Streeting: In terms of what is actually presented in a prospectus, you are right, there can be more clear and quantifiable information, but it does not boil down quite so simply to the number of contact hours, and so on, because I think what you've missed there is more of a descriptive sense of the experience on offer. But should institutions be more clear about who they are going to be taught by? Yes, they should. Should they be setting out clear expectations, the amount of reading time, outside the lab or the lecture time? Yes, they should. Some of these things are quantifiable in terms of the actual hours, some of it is more descriptive, but you are absolutely right, that information is generally missing from the university prospectus. Q136 Chairman: And it should be there? Mr Streeting: It absolutely should be there. Whether or not we need to go down to the language of contract and consumerism, I think there are lots of pitfalls there for students, but nonetheless I do absolutely agree, the information should be there. Q137 Chairman: Just while you have got the floor, your survey indicated that there is a very low level of satisfaction with facilities at UK universities. I think we as a Committee would accept that there has been a significant investment in our universities over the last ten years. I certainly feel that is the case. What are your concerns exactly? What sorts of facilities are you missing? Mr Streeting: I think it is a range of things really. It is partly access to specialised facilities as and when they're needed. If you are, say, a student with more practical components to your course, say an art student or a musician, or even a scientist, getting access to those key facilities when you need them isn't always a prospect or possibility. Bear in mind students are now working longer hours than ever before with part-time paid employment and so the times when they are able to access those facilities may vary significantly. It is also about things like library and learning resources, and IT facilities as well. If you think about the fact that you've got a whole range of key, particularly sort of core text and things like that which may be missing as and when you need them. So yes, I think the aesthetics of our campuses have been improving with that capital investment. Have all of these facilities necessarily been geared towards directly the student experience? I think that is more questionable. There are lots of nice, pretty buildings on campuses but we need to make sure they're actually serving and delivering for students as and when they need them. Q138 Chairman: Okay. Thank you for that. Rob, in your evidence you stated that research was "a vital component of any quality teaching environment," and indeed NUS backed that up, saying that "research activity is crucial to the development of effective pedagogy". But several research institutions have been placed quite low down in terms of the Times Higher Education survey and indeed in terms of the NUS survey in terms of quality, indicating that perhaps teaching is a second order activity. Does that worry you? Do you share that concern? Mr Park: It does actually worry me, yes, if teaching is a second priority for any institution. At the end of the day - dare I used that phrase? - researchers who are at the upper end of their research field will provide quality international standards of teaching and with collaborations across all universities and further education colleges we should be able to raise our standards of teaching. Q139 Chairman: I want to link it to research, you see. It is no good you saying, or indeed the NUS saying, "Look, you have to have strong research in a university and that impacts on teaching and raises teaching quality," and then on the other hand students saying, "Sorry, the major universities in terms of student satisfaction are saying, "Teaching is not very good here." Mr Park: If I may, one of the things we have said in our written evidence is that if the Government and the Committee could consider the introduction of national academies so that we would have access to research throughout the HE and FE sectors, it would not necessarily be vital to have in a university or a college a research or a research centre but there would be access to that research so that academics would be able to gain the experience by having part-time sabbaticals, for instance, at other research centres, for instance, in the Ninety-Four Group or the Russell Group. Q140 Chairman: Lisa, do you think every lecturer in higher education should be appropriately trained and qualified? Ms Carson: I think there are elements of scholarship where I think they should be appropriately trained. Q141 Chairman: No, I am not talking about scholarship, I am talking about their ability to actually teach. Should they be qualified? Ms Carson: Qualified to teach or able to teach would be my take on that. Q142 Chairman: Now, that's a PhD thesis somewhere, is it not? Wes, yes or no? Should every lecturer in higher education be qualified to teach? Mr Streeting: They should be appropriately trained and supported. What you don't want to do is have a system of qualification that is so cumbersome, bureaucratic and expensive that it deters good people from teaching. You definitely don't want that. But while progress has been made, you know, you've got the Higher Education Academy doing their national teaching fellowship scheme, you've got more higher education institutions than ever before putting in place structures to recognise and reward teaching. That's all great progress, but I think there are still too many horror stories of people being put in a position where they could be brilliant at writing books, top-notch academics, but do they have the interpersonal skills, the communication skills to teach? Not necessarily, and those people need to be supported. It happened in schools, it happens in colleges but it doesn't happen in our universities. So I think I would be cautious about moving towards a sort of PGCE-style training or accreditation route for teachers in higher education - Q143 Chairman: Wes, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have this fluffy world whereby some students have, as you have rightly said, a really disastrous experience and I think we could all quote that. It was the same when Dr Iddon was teaching. I did not mean that in a personal sense! Sorry, I will stop there. The point I am making here is that if we want to raise teaching standards - and the Academy was supposed to do that - do you not feel, as a students' union, you ought to be campaigning to make sure that every university accepts the need for its academics to be properly trained? Mr Streeting: I think if you ask the majority of students up and down the country, "Do you want your lecturers to be trained to teach?" they would say yes. Chairman: Okay. Thanks for that. Q144 Ian Stewart: I suppose, Chairman, if we're going to be truthful, I'm on the Council of Salford University as well. I am interested to hear your views. As an MP, I get families coming to me screaming that their child has not been able to get access to a medical course at a particular university with five grade A A-levels. How do you see the current system for access? What do you think could be put in its place, if it needs replacing, and what do you think would be better for people from poorer backgrounds who want to go to university? Mr Streeting: In terms of the current situation, I would describe it as not good enough by any stretch of the imagination. You have got organisations like the Sutton Trust which produce very good and robust research which demonstrates that there are plenty of well-qualified state applicants who do have the grades to get into straight A courses but nonetheless are choosing not to apply or do not get in. I think that is a big problem. There are people out there who are qualified but who don't necessarily see themselves on those courses. Q145 Ian Stewart: What if they are not even given an interview? Mr Streeting: That is also a big problem. In terms of how we need to change admissions, I think there are two things here. First, the best decisions about admissions rely not only on attainment but potential and take into account contextual factors relating to an applicant's background. We know that someone's family background or education background, their schooling, all of these things can have a direct impact on their attainment and their A-level scores don't necessarily measure that potential. We know there are universities like Bristol and St George's Medical School which taken into account those contextual factors, sometimes offer lower grade offers. There is all sorts of moral panic about social engineering, but actually those people they admit go on to perform just as well, or indeed out-perform their colleagues who are admitted from different social backgrounds on straight As. So I think the evidence is there to take that bold step. Q146 Ian Stewart: So are you in favour of what you have just described as social engineering in those circumstances? Mr Streeting: Big time. I think when we talk about phrases like "social engineering," let's be honest, the social engineering is the same social engineering that sees those universities disproportionately full of people from independent schools and top-performing state schools from relatively affluent areas. The second area I would change is the issue of the timing of the application strongly in favour of post-qualification applications. We know that too often applicants get under-predicted in terms of their scores, particularly disadvantaged students from the state sector where they get under-predicted. I think having a system whereby you know your grades when you apply to university is common sense. It would make the system not only fair but to be seen to be fair so you know who you are up against and what's going on there and it is also a case that I know the Government has pressed hard on and various parts of the higher education sector have pressed hard on, and another area where the higher education sector seems to do all it can to drag its heels through what I think is a common sense reform that will eventually happen, but not without an awful lot of wasted time in the meantime. Q147 Ian Stewart: Were those answers on behalf of NUS? Mr Streeting: Absolutely. Ian Stewart: Okay. Can I just take you on to another area? We have heard evidence from professors sitting where you are today previously and they certainly implied that they spoke on behalf of students and said that students reject the bursary scheme. We are aware that NUS policy is in favour of a bursary scheme. What do you say to that? Let me pose some rhetorical questions to help you give the answer, if you don't mind. Why should a bursary system help people who are applying in the Million+ Group as opposed to the Russell Group? Q148 Chairman: This is a national bursary scheme. Mr Streeting: I thought you were going to ask me a stream of questions and I was getting ready to write them all down! Look, I think the idea that there are these great pools of money out there to help students in hardship and students just don't want or need them is just cloud cuckoo land. How can that possibly be the reality when we know there are plenty of students out there who are in need of financial support, who are working longer hours. Are you telling me that if they knew that money was there they wouldn't be taking it? I've not met a single student who, if offered some free money, wouldn't take it. So I just think that is absolute nonsense. I think universities need to get a lot better at publicising their scheme, but I also think there is a deeply faulty systemic problem with them, that they are so widely variable across different institutions that, you know, it's not as straightforward as filling out your student finance application form and then being guaranteed a bursary. Q149 Chairman: I am sorry to cut you off, but Ian Stewart's question was really quite specific about a national bursary scheme and the business of Russell Group universities having students paying in fees which will be distributed to these metropolitans. Mr Streeting: Yes. The next point I was going to make was that we've got a widely variable bursary scheme where in Million+, for example, the average annual bursary awarded in 2006/7 was just £680; in Russell Group universities it was £1,790 and the issue is this: you could have one student at the University of Cambridge with exactly the same financial needs and experience as someone at the university down the road, at Anglia Ruskin. One will have an all-singing, all-dancing bursaries package which will help them out through their hardship at Cambridge and the other one will have a less generous bursary for Anglia Ruskin. That is not because Anglia Ruskin is mean-fisted, it is because they are more successful at widening participation. So you can have institutions with exactly the same sized cake but are having to chop it into much more thinly distributed slices because of their success at widening participation. I think there are two things in this: institutions which are most successful at widening participation, which is the stated Government objective, are punished financially, and secondly students who are in hardship are also punished financially depending on the choices of institutions. I think we need a system which is based truly on need, so you get a bursary that is based on what you need, not where you studied. To me, that is about increasingly support available through the National Student Support System. It makes it more effective, gets money where it is needed, is less bureaucratic and actually the big drive behind institutional bursaries, as we remember back in 2004, was that there are these great carrots to incentivise access to universities that are poor and widening participation. The evidence so far suggests that bursaries have not impact or very little impact whatsoever on applicants' choices, so they are not widening participation. Q150 Ian Stewart: Let us just move on a bit then to, I suppose, addressing political realities. We are in a very severe financial global situation and in those circumstances there are some hard choices to be made by Government and universities. What is the least bad option between keeping student numbers down - and I suppose therefore denying some people who are qualified to go to university from getting a university education - and keeping fees down and reducing the quality by requiring universities to do more with reduced cash? What is the least bad option? Mr Streeting: I certainly don't think in the face of a challenging economic climate we should be suppressing or reducing student numbers. Not only, I think, is it cruel to raise aspirations and then close the door to people who have just finally reached that point where they are going to make the leap, I think also it does the economy in the longer term a disservice by having less well-qualified graduates. There are plenty of other routes available. We welcome the expansion of apprenticeships and the determination to reduce the academic/vocational divide, but certainly I don't think we should be suppressing student numbers. In terms of the graduate contribution to the cost of higher education, I would welcome in the 2009 review a fundamental debate about the current system of higher education funding and how it could be done better. I don't think the question for the 2009 review should be, "The cap - how high?" it should be, "How do we see the expansion of our higher education system continuing for the next 20 or 30 years? What's the best way of funding it so that institutions are funded fairly and students are funded fairly?" Chairman: We know all the questions. Q151 Ian Stewart: You have not mentioned the Government once. Mr Streeting: In answer to the question, let's absolutely look at the graduate contribution. I think it could be collected fairly, but let's also look at increased public expenditure but also making sure the employers pay their fair way as well. The Deering compact identified three beneficiaries and it seems two are paying more than the other. Q152 Chairman: You are in favour as a student union of actually increasing, if necessary, the fees? Mr Streeting: No, we are certainly not in favour of increasing the fees under this current system. We are up for a debate on alternative ways of funding higher education. In fact, what I would propose is a situation where - Q153 Chairman: So the state would pay more? Mr Streeting: The investment needs to come from three sources. The Deering analysis --- Q154 Chairman: We know the three sources. Mr Streeting: Well, the Deering analysis is still relevant and I think that - Chairman: I do not think you are listening to Ian Stewart's questions. Ian made it very, very clear that there are very hard political choices to be made in a depression - sorry, in a recession! Dr Gibson: A Freudian slip! Was that on behalf of the Liberal Party? Q155 Chairman: No, no. So therefore the issue is, where do those funds come from? You are saying that in a recession we are going to ask employers for more? Mr Streeting: Look, for me the issue is this: there is a better way - Chairman: Please will you answer the question. Q156 Ian Stewart: You seem to be reluctant to mention the Government. Why is that? Mr Streeting: I am happy to see the Government putting more into higher education. I think I did say there are beneficiaries, the state, employers and graduates, and I am happy to see a debate about the graduate contributions open up, which is where you started, and would in fact advocate a system where those who earn more pay more. So, yes, some people might end up paying more and others would pay less depending on their earnings, but our position has always been consistent: higher education is worth every penny in terms of the taxpayers' contribution, in terms of what it delivers for the economy and what it delivers for society. Employers still are not paying their fair share, even in a recession. Q157 Ian Stewart: Can I just press you on that, Les, because we have read the Government's papers as well and policy, but the latest research is appearing to show that employers are actually contributing less and that the Government is contributing, as a society, more. What do you have to say about that? Mr Streeting: Employers were clearly set out as a major beneficiary of higher education. It seems to me the only time employers are happy to put their hands in their pockets at the moment is when they tie all sorts of strings to programmes and institutions and want to meddle much more in the curriculum and the direction of our institutions to the extent that some universities have become business-facing institutions and I think there is a real balance to be struck here. I think employers benefit enormously from well-qualified graduates in this country and should be prepared to pay more, but if we're serious about taking the higher education system forward, it is in need of more investment. We are pragmatic and open to a debate about the sources of the contribution but, yes, our higher education system does need more money. We absolutely concur with that. Q158 Chairman: I just want to ask you, Rob, you will notice that Wes never mentioned part-time students once in his answer. They are ruled out! It is still a full-time student debate. I am just being facetious! Do we actually need to address this issue of part-time students? Mr Park: Yes. Q159 Chairman: At the expense of full-time students? Mr Park: Well, I think it would be unfair either for this Committee or ourselves to pit one group of students against another. The part-time sector clearly has set its mission from the 1950s onwards in getting people who are building families, in work, or those who are changing jobs, setting their aspirations higher and up-skilling and re-training - Q160 Chairman: Who is going to pay for it, Rob? Mr Park: I am just going to come on to that, actually. Q161 Chairman: No, just tell us who is going to pay for it. Mr Park: Well, ultimately in the short-term the students are going to have to pay more. Q162 Chairman: The students? Mr Park: Yes. That's not my opinion, it's what is going to happen. Chairman: It is what is going to happen. I will move on to Gordon. Q163 Mr Marsden: Thank you, Chairman. I am going to talk about part-time students. Although it is a matter of historic rather than current interest in terms of declaration, I will say that I was a part-time course student at the Open University for nearly 20 years. Therefore, when I read in your written evidence, Lisa, what you said about the overwhelming majority of Open University students not receiving support from their employers that was something which struck a chord in terms of my experience. The problem is, both in terms of the absolute debate about funding and the specific debate on part-timers and ELQ the Government has consistently produced statistics which have suggested that a significant number of part-time students, mature students, do get funding from their employers. That is because lots of them tend to have professional degrees. How do we get across the fact that that is not the case for the majority and what sort of funding regime would you like to see in the future? Ms Carson: On part-time students, I think the figure which came out when we were looking at ELQ was that of those students who are paying their own fees, as it were, only 17 per cent were supported by employers. That leaves a hell of a lot of students who are not supported by their employers. Particularly when students are mature and part-time they are looking at expanding their horizons and actually moving on from where they are. Therefore, an employer is not particularly disposed to actually supporting them in furthering that development. If they are actually wanting to better themselves and actually get that education which the Government has clearly stated there is a need for, they are having to do it off their own bat. Q164 Mr Marsden: That is helpful. I want to ask you, Rob, if I may, just picking up on that and on the current situation which my colleague Ian Stewart talked about, these are hard political decision times and they are hard economic decision times. We have heard a number of calls, and in fact we touched on this subject in our own last report, for there to be an equalisation of funding criteria between part-time and full-time students. But if we are to do that, would it be reasonable, in your view, in a downturn that more attention should be given to the skills outcome of part-time study as opposed to the purely academic? Mr Park: Yes. I think the skills outcome actually benefits the economy, the students and our future employers and is a worthwhile test. Q165 Mr Marsden: Can I, because time is tight, press both of you on a second question? Again, there is much debate about the so-called gold standard impact of A-levels and everything, but we know that a large number of not just part-time students but mature students, whether they are part or full-time, come either with few A-levels or with a mixture of A-levels which are not appropriate. In your experience, Lisa, in terms of OUSA, obviously the situation in the Open University is different but many of your students also go on and do courses at other universities. Are you satisfied that in general the HE system recognises non-A-level qualifications, not just vocational ones but diplomas, and where are we going to be in terms of getting them to recognise some of the new apprenticeship qualifications which come forward? Ms Carson: I have concerns about higher education in general accepting those from the point of view that it is seen more that their catchment is the younger student who is straight out of school and basically hasn't left the system. When it comes to the mature student, it is a different set of issues and they are coming from all different backgrounds, so you have got students who have life experience which isn't a paper qualification but it is equally valid as experience towards setting them up to be able to cope with higher education. Q166 Mr Marsden: Rob, what is your take on this? Birkbeck, as I think most people will know, has got a fairly broad policy in terms of accepting people's backgrounds but that is not true, I would suggest, of the majority of Russell Group universities? Mr Park: Yes, that's correct. We do support PQAs, the post-qualification admission, also based on a case by case basis for the students as well and individual faculties and courses will set their own admissions targets within a quality assurance framework. One thing I just wanted to talk about was the entrance tests, which we have talked about in the original questions the Committee set down. Our feeling is that if there was a move to introduce entrance tests in either some institutions or across the board, then we would oppose it on the principle of, "What are we testing for?" Are we testing people's ability to take tests or are we testing people's ability to be able to develop into a good student and therefore be one of the success stories which our economy needs for the future? Q167 Dr Harris: If it is the latter, you would welcome that? If there was academic research which showed that the test actually was quite good at identifying the people who do well in their degree and was actually quite hard to tutor for, then you would accept their extension in order to make it fairer, or would you be opposed to it anyway? Mr Park: If it was the traditional written examination, then we would oppose it because I think you are testing someone on how to take a test. Q168 Dr Harris: No, no, let us say it was shown in academic research that the test, written, oral or visual for all I care, showed that it actually did not select those people who could be tutored for tests and were good at exams but actually very well judge those people who are able to benefit, then would you support the rolling out regardless of the format? The format is a secondary issue, is it not? Mr Park: Yes. Chairman: I think there was a misunderstanding there on that. Dr Iddon: I think I will address this one to Alex as he has been very quiet up to now! Chairman: Can I say, Brian, that Lisa has to leave at ten past and I want to finish this line of questioning by ten past. Q169 Dr Iddon: We have created a football-like league of universities, have we not, where the standards in the premier division are much higher than the standards in the lower divisions? Would you agree with that? Mr Bols: No. I think the important thing to recognise in terms of different institutions is that actually different institutions offer very different student experiences and offer actually quite different qualifications. They are broadly comparable but just because they are different doesn't mean that they are worse and I think the fact that we have such a diverse HE system is actually one of the benefits of it, the fact that a student from a research intensive course comes out with a set of skills based on the fact that it is a very research intensive course, the skills that go along with that. But actually then coming out of the student experience report which NUS produced a significantly higher proportion of students at Russell Group institutions are likely to go on to further academic study, so actually that is a relevant set of skills for those students, and actually looking at, for example, Liverpool John Moores, their "World of Work" scheme, working very closely with employers to provide highly equipped, highly skilled graduates for the workplace. Different institutions provide different skills within a broad framework. I think the key point is that students, when they are applying to institutions, are not clearly advised through that process of what a different qualification from a different institution means. Q170 Dr Iddon: I am a chemist, Alex, and that is not the perception employers have of chemistry students across the spectrum. Why have employers got a different perception to the one you have got? Mr Bols: As I say, I think the key point is to recognise that different institutions offer different experiences. Q171 Dr Iddon: But a chemistry degree is a chemistry degree. It is a factual course. It is teaching basic knowledge in chemistry and whether it is applicable in different circumstances. Mr Streeting: But our employers use grounded in evidence and factor their perceptions based on the market and prestige which exists between different institutions. Q172 Dr Iddon: I am just asking you the question, why have employers got a different perception than you have got as the NUS? Mr Streeting: I think that is actually more to do with snobbery and misunderstanding on the part of employers and the discourse that takes place in the national media rather than an evidenced assessment of what's taking place at different institutions up and down the country. Q173 Dr Iddon: Okay. Let me pitch this one at all of you. The Quality Assurance Agency, that is supposed to maintain quality across the universities in the same course and they should be roughly comparable with the proviso you have made. Do you think the Quality Assurance Agency has the teeth to do that? Is it doing the job it was set out to do or is it failing in its mission? Mr Bols: I think the key point about the Quality Assurance Agency is that it is doing a very good job at what it is being asked to do. In terms of actually going in and ensuring that institutions manage the quality assurance procedures, they do a good job at that, but the key point you are asking is actually about standards. Each individual institution as the awarding body is obviously responsible for the standards of that award, but that needs to be within a broadly comparable system, and actually I think one of the key areas we would want to highlight is the external examiner system because it is actually the external examiner system which provides the comparability of qualifications across the sector. Actually, in terms of the external examiner system, it is a system which is certainly poorly understood by students let alone the general public. Q174 Dr Iddon: Does it work, do you think? Mr Bols: I think there is a lot of investment which would need to be put into the external examiner system, I think having a national body or national network whereby they are able to get different experiences of standards in different institutions, additional training and actually the fact that people don't want to go and apply to the external examiners under the current system, partly because of the lack of recognition, partly because it doesn't support in terms of the career development, but also the fact that they get a nominal salary for that. But actually if you look at the salary, for example, which those members of staff who do institutional audits receive it is not comparable. So if the external examiner system is the system by which standards are comparable across the sector, then I think we need to put more investment into that, in short. Q175 Dr Iddon: Does the QAA ever ask the consumer, namely the students, about the quality of universities? Are you consulted by the QAA? Mr Streeting: Certainly there is a student written submission. The auditor will go in and actually meet the student panel from the Union. QAA is actually actively consulted and pressed ahead with introducing student auditors, which I think is a really welcome development. I have to say in terms of representing the user interest in the quality assurance process I think the QAA ought to be commended for the way in which they have driven this agenda forward and actually pressed harder than most other sector agencies on actually engaging students in the learning experience. At a time when 23 per cent of our members tell us that they are currently directly involved in shaping their learning experience, the assessment curriculum, content, design, and so on, but 57 per cent actually want to be, that disconnect exists and I think the QAA really has pressed ahead on that agenda. Chairman: I know that Lisa has to go because she has a plane to catch. Q176 Dr Iddon: I am just turning to Lisa now, and Rob indeed, but Lisa first. First, second, upper twos, lower twos, it is a nonsense now, is it not? The degree classification system is a nonsense, is it not? Ms Carson: It is not something I particularly understand in that what I have in my university is a different system. So I do not fully understand it, having not studied in the traditional university, as it were. Q177 Dr Iddon: What would you replace it with, Lisa? Ms Carson: I think the qualifications need to be recognised, what the standards are. I think the content of the qualification, some sort of summary and some sort of record, is very important. Q178 Dr Iddon: So you think the student record from a different module should follow the student not just the degree classification, is that what you are saying? Ms Carson: Yes. Q179 Dr Iddon: A percentage award would be more meaningful than a first or a second? Ms Carson: I believe so. Q180 Dr Iddon: What about you, Rob? Mr Park: If it were to be replaced, personally I'd replace it with a distinction, merit and a pass system, as currently happens with Master's degrees. There would be a transcript with it as well and that wouldn't just detail academic achievements but it would also talk about other projects and activities which that student had managed to achieve in their time, particularly in a part-time environment. Q181 Mr Marsden: Wes, you said in your evidence you thought the current credit accumulation award system was not fit for purpose and you have served on the Burgess Group. Would it be fair to say then - and I will ask Rob also for his view on this - that the progress we have made in terms of credit accumulation and credit transfer has been fairly glacial? Mr Streeting: I think that's fair. At the moment we've got the trial taking place of the new Higher Education Achievement Record but will what comes out of the Burgess review actually match the ambition of the report or tackle the actual problem we set out? No, it won't, and once again I think this is an area where a clear analysis has been set out with mass stakeholder involvement across the higher education sector, a common sense solution is proposed and then the institutions drag their heels. I think that is a big problem. Q182 Mr Marsden: Rob, just on that point, one of the other things we know is that more and more higher education is being delivered by further education and the links between HE and FE are much stronger. You said in your evidence - and I was really interested in this - that FE qualifications "should be designed to become a stepping stone to Level 4 qualifications." Would you like to elaborate on that at all? Mr Park: Well, there certainly shouldn't be a barrier. They should be welcomed within the higher education system so that people can start at Level 1 and progress through to whatever level they desire, or their workplace or their circumstances desire them to be. Q183 Mr Marsden: So it is a circulation route rather than just sort of saying, "You've always got to come into HE," because we know that more people are probably going to want to do FE qualifications subsequent to HE qualifications? Mr Park: Yes. Chairman: I am very, very sorry but we have come to an end of this first part and we have overrun by nine minutes. You said you had to be away by ten past, Lisa, so we have made that. Can we thank you very much indeed Bob Park, Lisa Carson, Wes Streeting and Alex Bols, for your session. Thank you very much indeed. Witnesses: Carrie Donaghy, Northumbria University; Ricky Chotai, University of Salford; Lucy Hopkins, University of Loughborough; Arnold Sarfo-Kantanka, Brunel University; and James Williamson, University of Sheffield; Joanna Greensill, Wolverhampton University, gave evidence. Q184 Chairman: Can I welcome the first of our afternoon panels, the second panel of the day but the first of our self-appointed student panels, and could I thank you enormously for taking the time and trouble to come down to Westminster today. If I could just introduce for the record Ricky Chotai from the University of Salford, Carrie Donaghy from Northumbria University, Lucy Hopkins from the University of Loughborough, Arnold Sarfo-Kantanka from Brunel University and last but by no means least James Williamson from the University of Sheffield. Welcome to you. What I want to do is to give you two minutes - and my colleague is going to time you with his new watch - to basically say, starting with you, Carrie, what is a good university experience and what is one significant thing you would change? Miss Donaghy: Okay. Well, university life I think is an amazing experience and I would not have chosen any other path. I believe that choosing the right course for you and having a relationship with lecturers is fundamentally important. Effective communication between staff and students means that learning will be more pleasurable. Furthermore, I believe it is important to have an advice centre where students can access independent advice on different issues with their lives and courses. I feel that to feel more at ease whilst studying the university has to prepare their students for real life jobs. At Northumbria I have wholly enjoyed my course because it is the only university with a fully functional student law office - law is what I do - which means I am able to meet real clients and run real cases. That fact that I have been able to see how a real firm works has helped me to prepare for working in a real law firm. Within the current job market it is important that universities do prepare their students for jobs as not only are students now competing for jobs but many experienced people are losing their jobs, meaning that graduates are up against those who have a lot more experience. Even though I myself have had a very positive experience within university because of the excellent teaching and support that I have received from Northumbria, I believe there are some factors which do hinder university life. It is clear that student debt is progressively rising. Recent reports show that student debt is rocketing with the average student having around £6,000 of debt every year, leaving them owing well over £18,000 by the time they leave. It is a very worrying issue for students, especially with today's economic climate and it puts a huge burden on them being able to cope with this debt. Also, students are constantly trying to struggle with part-time jobs on top of this. Q185 Chairman: You did brilliantly there! James? Mr Williamson: What I think makes a university a good experience is a good students' union. Of course that means good sports facilities, bars, a cinema, various political, charitable, national and departmental societies. However, the students' union should not primarily be a leisure centre but a support for students. To me that means a well-funded union supported by a university campaigning against discrimination and higher fees but also provides students with expert advice on financial, educational or even legal matters like my union does. Student representation - and this is the main point - within the university is extremely valuable. Allowing course reps to participate in such student committees can lead to a more flexible approach to types of assessment feedback and can alert problems to departments which they were not aware of like a lack of pastoral support. A union aiding this through union links is a real benefit. The part that I would like to change is the amount of debt endured by students. This has come about as a result of rising fees and the privatisation of student halls among other reasons. Students now leave university with over £15,000 of debt and no longer have the promise of a well-paid job afterwards. Working during the course, which is necessary for some, lowers students' chances of gaining a good two on a first degree. I hope you appreciate the effect of this. Where parents can afford to meet the cost of living students gain better degrees; where parents can't afford it, their children's job prospects are damaged. When debts are so high and repayment takes so long many poorer students may decide to avoid university due to its cost, especially at the moment. University is too expensive and there are not enough grants offered to poorer students. Q186 Chairman: Okay. I will have to stop you there. Thank you very much indeed. Lucy? Miss Hopkins: My three years at Loughborough so far have been exceptional and it is very difficult for me to pinpoint what exactly has made my experience so rich and fulfilling. My student experience is not just my own, it is the vast amount of people at Loughborough who work hard to enhance not only the academic but also the social wellbeing of all its students. The students' union prides itself on making sure that any activity it undertakes is for the sole purpose of bettering student life. So what makes the student experience? Well, for me the experience is more than just the degree you achieve at the end of your time at university. If I were to use one phrase to encapsulate which makes or breaks a student experience it would be getting involved. The endless opportunities available at university are wasted if students are not properly encouraged to embrace them and push themselves. Loughborough's commitment to excellence encourages its students to get involved, to try things and embrace change. As a result, students not only develop academically but are equipped for every aspect of their lives and careers. What I have found at my university is that there really is something for everyone. You will meet people from all over the world. You will be able to join one or more of over 100 clubs and societies, perhaps learn a new sport, fundraise for charity and learn that helping the community can be really fun. The universities which offer more, which proactively encourage and show their students how many opportunities they have, these are the ones where the students are happiest. In terms of my own personal journey, I came from a very small girls' school and came to Loughborough to complete an art degree. I ended up running a campus of 6,000 people and my time as a full-time student doing this alongside is not uncommon at Loughborough. These extra opportunities have given me invaluable skills and experiences that I never would have had had it not been for my university and our fantastically committed union. Loughborough gives you the opportunity to push yourself and it is because of the confidence and experiences which my university experience has given me that I feel able to sit in front of you all today. There is a huge devotion and loyalty that students show to Loughborough and we are always talking about "giving back what Loughborough has given to you." Students take an enormous pride in getting as involved as possible, whereas at some universities that may be deemed unfashionable. Q187 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. No faults for Loughborough! Ricky? Mr Chotai: In regards to the question asked about one factor which makes a good university experience, in my opinion it is a really extremely difficult question to answer. I don't think you'll find two students at all who will tell you the same answer, but personally for me the main one would have to be the high standard of teaching, which is good value for the tuition fees we are paying for our course. There's nothing more frustrating when you go to a lecture and you have a lecturer just reading Powerpoint slides, especially when they are available at other sources like on the internet and the virtual learning environments we have as well. On the other hand, we have some lecturers who give out more information during our lectures and manage to make them much more interesting and interactive. These are lecturers who are improving standards of teaching and make the course more enjoyable and exciting and that ultimately leads to a fantastic university experience. If there is one thing I wanted to change - again, it is another difficult question, but for me it is understanding about students as well. I think universities have gone away from understanding their students and the support they need to offer, as mentioned throughout the panel. A lot of students need to work part-time or they've got childcare commitments. This is especially so at Salford and I feel that the university is struggling to understand the needs of those. One example I can use from my own experience is timetabling. Last year the timetable was released two days before semester started. That had serious implications for students. As a result of that some people had to leave their part-time jobs because they couldn't give information about availability. Childcare issues were a real nightmare to sort out as well. Even lecturers weren't turning up because they didn't know they were scheduled to teach because of that issue. In any other organisation it wouldn't be acceptable so there's no reason why in a university it is acceptable. My university is forever telling me we're the "customers" and yet although this is true we are more than customers, we are here to educate, fulfil and expand our horizons. Q188 Chairman: I will leave that there, thank you. We will come back to all these issues, so do not worry. Arnold? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: Good afternoon. I personally feel that a good university experience is two-fold. You've got an academia side and you've got a social side. The two combined are powerful. The academia side: a lot of universities provide lectures, they provide seminars, et cetera, but I think what makes a good university experience is the ability to engage students more with the clubs and societies on campus because if you look at today's working environment a lot of graduate recruiters are looking not just for your degree, they are looking for the social skills and by getting involved in these clubs and societies you are able to build up your interpersonal skills, your time management and your team work and when you go to interviews, et cetera, you are able to give tangible examples. So that's the main thing, apart from everything else that's been covered, which I believe produces a good university experience. One factor I look to improve, number one, is student debt, but I think two or three people have covered that. Q189 Chairman: That is right, yes, but you would echo that? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I will echo that, agreed. Another factor which I believe can be improved is employability, career aspirations. A lot of people want to be a consultant, they want to be a lawyer, they want to be a politician, but what does that involve? I don't think the nail is really hit on the head when it comes to universities. It is so broad, the different areas that the university can get into, but I don't think that issue is really touched upon between the academia and other organisations such as Elevation Networks, who aim to provide that networking platform for young people to interact with these different employers at the forefront of industries so that they can get more tangible knowledge rather than the generic information available online and in publications. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. You have finished perfectly on time, so Brunel must teach you time management! First of all, thank you all very, very much indeed for that. What we will do - and we have got a whole series of different things we want to throw at you - we are not going down the panel, I just want an indication that you want to respond and then we will move on, but will you keep your answers as brief as possible. We are going to start at looking at why you actually applied to go to university and what are the problems. Q190 Mr Marsden: Actually, if I could get literally a quick "Yes" or "No" from everybody I think it would be quite useful because one of the issues which constantly is being talked about these days is the importance of the courses in the universities as opposed to whether a particular university is a good university or not so good. Could I just ask all of you in turn, when you applied was it the course or was it the university you went for above all? Miss Donaghy: Course. Mr Williamson: University. Miss Hopkins: Course. Mr Chotai: A combination! Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: It was definitely a combination of the two. Q191 Mr Marsden: An interesting mix. One of the other things, of course, which people say compared with students 20 or 30 years ago is, "Oh, you have so much more information because you can go on the internet and you can do this, that and the other." How much information did you have about the sort of contact hours you would have, the sorts of numbers of people you would have in your class, on your course, and if you had known about those things beforehand would it have made any difference to where you went for? James, do you want to start? Mr Williamson: I didn't know very much about all of the things you've just mentioned. I only knew about what would be covered in the course and that was the main reason - in fact I did choose my course and that was probably, as they said, a combination. Q192 Mr Marsden: You are doing a joint course, are you not? Mr Williamson: Yes, I am. It was about the content. Mr Chotai: Before I applied again it was mainly content. However, at the open day we were given information regarding hours of expected studying and although I'd already applied and had an offer, that was then backed by the decision as to whether that would be my first or second choice. All that information was given. Q193 Mr Marsden: Lucy, can I ask you because according to your c.v. here you said you started off at Loughborough with a diploma and then decided to stay on, so you are probably quite a good person to ask the question of. There is a lot of discussion now. As you know, the diploma is beginning to start in schools and we have got much more emphasis put on apprenticeships. Do you think there is enough emphasis given in universities to the potential for students coming in with non-traditional qualifications like A-levels? Miss Hopkins: Well, on my course I do graphic design and there is a lot of people who didn't do, say, foundation art. They might have done a foundation in engineering or lots of different types of art. So there is a lot of different types of people on our course. They didn't all do the same foundation art at all and they came from colleges or from different universities. I don't quite understand the question. Is that what you meant? Q194 Mr Marsden: Sort of. It is about what qualifications you had to get into the university. The majority of the people here on the panel, for example, have done A-levels. Miss Hopkins: Well, at Loughborough all I had to do to get onto the foundation is you had to show obviously your art work, but you just had to pass you're A-levels and it didn't matter which ones they were. Mr Marsden: So it was just jumping through a hoop. Q195 Mr Boswell: Can I talk a bit about time, and I would like to get a handle a little more precisely on contact time, how much you actually get and the footnote, is it what you thought you would get or it is enough? Secondly, if any of you want to say how much time you spend on either paid or unpaid activities as part of your university week. Are you being taught more or studying more than you are working, for example? Just one other thing on this: do you think that the taxi meter clocks to about the same result at your university as anywhere else? If you are going to have a degree, this is the effect of your own effort and the process of time. When you have been through the process at your own institution, do you get the impression that students you talk to from other places are working as hard, putting in as much effort and their degree will be the same as yours? So that is really what are you doing around your studies, what are you finding time to do outwith your studies - and I am not suggesting it is a waste of time - are you really putting in as much effort as counterparts, more or less? I do not know if anyone would like to offer on that? Carrie, you are smiling there. Miss Donaghy: I am. With regards teaching time, I would say I get round about 14 hours a week - Q196 Mr Boswell: In different formats? I do not want the detail, but some seminars and some lectures? Miss Donaghy: Yes. I would say private study about at least 30 hours a week, which is quite a lot. Q197 Mr Boswell: That is high. No time for working then? Miss Donaghy: I don't have a part-time job because I'm in my third year law degree and I wouldn't have time to do it. Mr Williamson: I started with 14 to 18 hours and that stayed about the same for the first and second year. I spent a year abroad in my third year so that doesn't really count, but in my fourth year recently I've probably done eight to nine hours work in the university. That's the first question. The second question, now I only do four but that's because I'm going to do a sort of extended essay, so I spend more time on that. Outside, I probably spend 15 to 20 hours working a week. Q198 Chairman: Ricky, is your degree worth the same as if you had gone to Cambridge? Mr Chotai: Not at all. I think there's a lot of impressions amongst employers about - earlier it was mentioned about the football league of universities. In my opinion, in my degree, yes, there is. My degree isn't just as worthy as a business management degree from the University of Manchester. Employers, I think, immediately pick up on that and if I managed to get a first class 2.1 against one of those students I think my application would be further down the list. I think that's my honest opinion. Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I agree with Ricky. With the universities in the top 10, top 20 in the Times 100, let's say, there's more of a support network there and you will notice that with a lot of these corporates there's a lack of resource and capabilities if you look at it from that perspective, so there's only so much resource they can allocate to going to universities and tying to sell them the vision of, you know, "Come to work for us," et cetera, et cetera. To basically follow on from what Ricky is saying, my degree, yes, I can come out with a first 2.1 but I feel I have to work that little bit harder external to the university to bolster up my c.v. because I've got to stand out in some sort of way, if that makes sense. Q199 Chairman: Okay. The same with you, Lucy? Miss Hopkins: Yes. I think what university you go to make a huge difference and I really don't actually think that's fair. If every course is meant to be the same, then it's meant to be the same. Obviously with my course it's quite specialist, but I'm meant to be in 9.00 to 5.00 every single day. They have a tutor available every single day and a different type of tutor every single day, and then we have four hours of lectures. Obviously it's a very different subject with it being art. Q200 Mr Boswell: So other people are not doing as much as you are probably? Miss Hopkins: Well, for the law obviously it's a different type of learning than it is with graphics. We've got 9.00 to 5.00, obviously a lot of research and that kind of thing, but obviously I've got no time for a job with that as well. Q201 Mr Boswell: Just a final point because you have referred to the fact that you manager of the campus. How much time can you spend on that as well and does it actually improve your personal development as well as the work you do as a student? Miss Hopkins: I think the work I do as a student - the work I do outside of being a student - is probably far much more important than what I can get with my degree because so many people - there's about 40 people doing my degree, graphic design, and there are so many people wanting to be a graphic designer and the fact that I've done this stuff as well adds so much more to my c.v. than anything else. Q202 Mr Boswell: So it gives you an edge, does it? Miss Hopkins: Definitely. Q203 Dr Iddon: How important do you think it is for a lecturer also to be involved in research, or if not research certainly scholarship? Can I start with Arnold? Do you think if one of your lecturers is closely involved in research, runs a research group, it betters their teaching? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I would like to think so, but I still would like to have that relationship with the lecturers. I tell a lot of students who are in the year below me that you've got to build up a relationship. They're not professors and doctors for no reason. They've got a wealth of knowledge that you need to leech off to an extent because really and truly I'm in my final year now and if a lecturer is off doing research all of the time but they're not engaging with the student, then that puts me at a bit of a disadvantage because I need to read around the topics, I need to read around the modules - Q204 Dr Iddon: Does that happen a lot, Arnold, the lecturers going AWOL when they should be teaching you? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I cannot speak for everyone, but I've seen it in cases - not in my university but in other universities where that has happened and I think that's an issue which might need to be addressed. Q205 Dr Iddon: Okay. Ricky, how about Salford, where I used to teach incidentally, so be careful? Mr Chotai: I think if you posed that question regarding research to a lot of students in Salford University they obviously wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. I think telling people about research - it just isn't out there in Salford. I think the only reason I know personally about research in university is that my Dad's a lecturer at Lancaster! I know also there's a lot of student liaison work within the schools, within the faculties. I think that's why I know about it. I think if you asked one of my colleagues on business and management they wouldn't be aware of anything about the research going on in the business school, they wouldn't have an idea of figures or anything like that. I think it's important, to go back to your original question. Q206 Dr Iddon: I am sorry for rushing you. Lucy? Miss Hopkins: I think it's very important. I like to think that when I'm having a lecture it's not the same lecture that he or she has been teaching for the last ten years. I like to know that it's updated, that they're taking an interest in what they're teaching us, carrying on, and that I'm learning something that's up to date and that I can quote my lectures in my essays. I think that's very important. Mr Williamson: I agree with what you've just said, but it depends on the subjects as well to an extent. I mean, I do German and there is very little point in reading and talking with the sort of linguistics and really deep research into the linguistics. All one really needs to learn is how to speak German. That's important, too, having content, but in my own department, politics, it's incredibly valuable to learn the things that specific lecturers have interests in and you get such a broad knowledge. Q207 Dr Iddon: Carrie, you are a lawyer. It must be important in your area? Miss Donaghy: I think it's vital that they do. I think it obviously changes all the time so they constantly need to be updating and constantly need to be researching, and that does happen. I see it happening. Q208 Dr Iddon: Let me switch the questioning now to whether first class degrees from different universities are the same. I was disappointed with the NUS answer, I will tell you. They were giving a perception that I did not think the NUS would give. Do you agree with it? I think you all heard the NUS guys tell us about the quality of degrees from different universities and two of you at least at this end of the table have said there is a difference in degrees between universities. Let me start, therefore, with Carrie. Do you have a different opinion? Miss Donaghy: I think if you compare my degree with somewhere like Cambridge, I think if someone looked a lot deeper into the actual degree they would see that - I'm going to make a political point here, but they would see that my course is just as good. I don't think employers see that. I think if they looked at my course, if they saw the work that we actually do, then I think - Q209 Dr Iddon: I appreciate your course is good, but do you think it is comparable right across the university spectrum, or do we have this football league I described earlier? Miss Donaghy: No, I don't think it's the same. I don't think it's a level playing field at all. Mr Williamson: I think it's impossible for it to be the same, just on the basis that it's not centrally marked. It's not like the A-levels where it's supposed to be pretty much on the same level. But as to whether it's a straight football league, of course it can't be like that because it's sort of individual departments are much better than other individual departments. But whether it should be the same, I'm not sure. Miss Hopkins: Just so that I don't repeat everybody else, I find it very annoying that in terms of art, if I say that I'm doing art at Loughborough people say, "Well, do you play sport?" It's almost like you're getting judged by - like, say, Brighton is actually fantastic for art but people might not know that and people might have already an opinion about Brighton University than they do about art at university and it is unfair that they should be taking it department by department at the different universities rather than taking Loughborough as a university, because that's unfair. People have this false impression that Loughborough is just about sport. Obviously it's got a fantastic engineering department, a fantastic art department and people just think about Loughborough as sport. I think it's unfair that employers think like that. Q210 Dr Harris: Just a couple of quick questions. If you wanted to, would it be possible for you to copy someone else's work from the internet, for example, in your course work or in your essays for those of you for whom it is relevant? If you did, do you feel that would be detected? I know you would never do it. Miss Donaghy: I think it would definitely be detected. I mean, this year I've just submitted a piece of course work and it had to be submitted with a disk so they can check for plagiarism and things like that. So you could definitely not copy it all. Definitely not. Mr Williamson: The only way I could think of copying it is if I actually paid someone else directly to write it for me. That's the only way I could think of doing it. Q211 Dr Harris: Have you thought of doing that? Mr Williamson: No! Q212 Dr Harris: Anyone with any different views? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I know the university has a system now where you hand in your assignment or your dissertation online. They have a system which checks. They've got like a database of different journals from way back, so if they pick up any sentences or anything that's directly quoted, you haven't cited it or you haven't referenced it appropriately, then they'll be able to pick up on plagiarism. Q213 Dr Harris: Let me ask you a different question. If it was decided that we needed to have more people doing science subjects, subjects where we were sort, and they said, "Right, we're going to convert some courses that were not so useful to the country - I am not saying that they are not academic courses, media studies is often quoted, do you think your student body generally would be happy with that or do you feel that people should be entitled to study what they want and as long as they meet the qualifications the university should lay on the places if they can? Mr Chotai: I think that students should be allowed to study what they feel they want to at university, whether that's media studies or television or radio, or whether it's business and management. I think if the Government was looking to do something like that, it could maybe look at financial incentives for the degrees they were wanting to push that they felt were more relevant, just as in the case where teacher training is done. The specific courses where teachers are needed the extra money is pumped into it. Q214 Dr Harris: So the Government could say, "Right, we'll give you free education for the courses we think are useful but we're going to charge you, so poor people can't do media studies because we're going to have a means test on the courses we don't think are that useful? Is that what you're proposing? Mr Chotai: I'm not proposing in that sort of way, but I just think everyone should have the option to study what they want to, but if there us a demand for pharmacists, et cetera, and that's vital for the country there's got to be encouragement along there. I would say financial, in my opinion, is the best way to encourage students but I wouldn't say you should discriminate against anyone who wants to do media studies. Q215 Dr Harris: Does anyone disagree with that? Mr Williamson: Only in respect that you should put more money into both departments. I can't see why that's not possible. Q216 Dr Harris: So it's wrong? Mr Williamson: Well, I'm not a government minister. I don't decide that. Q217 Dr Harris: I am asking you. Say you can only afford a certain number of places. In order to have more engineers, say, or maths graduates for maths teaching, or - perhaps not accountants these days but other useful things, people with Chinese, for example, or who speak Indian and if there is a set amount and they have to cut something, do you feel that is fair, because that would mean certain people would not be able to go to do the things they wanted to do? Mr Williamson: I think it depends on who you're offering it to. If you're opening it up to anybody who wants to study that I wouldn't think that's a good idea, but if you're opening it to people who can't afford the subject they want to, like science, then that makes sense. Miss Hopkins: I don't know whether it would have a bad effect, say, if people at my school pushed and they didn't want you to do art, they wanted you to do architecture, and say they wanted you to do architecture instead of doing art because it made the school look better, or whatever, I think then I would have done architecture and I would have dropped out, and that's just costing me money, it's costing you guys money, it's costing everybody money. So if you're pushing people to do courses that aren't right for them, not because they wanted to, it could actually have a bad effect and I just don't thing it would work. Q218 Dr Harris: Yes, it could. My last question, which leads into financial matters but does not deal with some of the other questions is, do you feel that you or any of your colleagues with the level of debt you are likely to have means that that is going to impact on your career choice? Is it conceivable to you that you might not go into a doctorate or research if you had a bigger debt because you want to get a job that pays more money straight away, or is that not a factor for most students because they love what they want to do and they are prepared to have more debt? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I think it depends on the students themselves. Q219 Dr Harris: It does, but I am asking what is your view? Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: My view is that the debt is lingering over me. Whether I like it or not, I have to pay it back. I want to pursue my passions. I want to pursue what I'm interested in and I would see that as an issue, the debt hanging over me, but I'm speaking for myself. Mr Chotai: I think wholeheartedly that people would definitely consider looking at whether they wanted to study maths or something like that because of the cost implications. I think people are much more likely today to take a year out to work to earn the money or, you know, secure a strong work offer or some way to ensure they can pay the fees they want to carry on to and I think it is a major issue. Mr Williamson: I only want to say that I personally wouldn't be able to because I have too much debt. Miss Hopkins: There's a lot of people at my university who aren't doing masters because of the money implications. Q220 Ian Stewart: In those terms, is it still worthwhile going to university in the current economic climate? Miss Donaghy: Yes. Miss Hopkins: Yes. Q221 Ian Stewart: All of you. Start at that end. Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I think that's a very good question because if you look at it nowadays, the graduate recruiters, they're not just looking at your degree, or if you've got a Master's they're looking at your soft skills, as I keep reiterating, then one has to think, "Why should I do a Master's? How much more will that benefit me getting the job I desire?" I guess it's a question to put out there. Mr Chotai: We're talking about undergraduates as well? Yes, in that respect I think of course it's worth going to university. I think the skills that you learn alongside, as we mentioned all the way through, as part of my role I was treasurer of the radio station at Salford and I'm the student liaison officer for the business school and I've learnt how to conduct myself in meetings. I've learnt so many skills through my student representation work than I ever would have in the classroom in regards to accounting and finance and sales for the radio station. Again, they're skills that I've learnt and I would never have done that if I'd just looked at it - if you're looking at it academically, I thing once you get to university circumstances change and you change and you develop and grow, and I think that's part of the whole process. Q222 Ian Stewart: Are you all in favour of a national bursary scheme and should it be targeted towards poorer students? Mr Williamson: What does that entail? Q223 Ian Stewart: Should a national bursary scheme be set up, and if it is set up should it be targeted towards assisting poorer students? Mr Chotai: Could you just clarify? Q224 Chairman: Rather than having an individual university with this bursary scheme, at the moment it is ten per cent of the fees, so that you know in advance when you apply what the rules were rather than wait until you got to university and seeing what they offered. Mr Chotai: If it encourages more people to go to university, encourages people from poorer backgrounds and gives them the opportunity to go to university and have the experience I've had, wholeheartedly, yes. I think if it's put to people in the category that are not going to university because they feel financially they won't be able to do that - I mean, in the case of Salford we have a lot of students who commute in from the Greater Manchester area and I think if you asked that question of them they'd agree that the university has changed them even though they're living at home and commuting in. As a live-in student on campus, I agree that everyone should have that opportunity Chairman: On that note, than you very much. Can I just say you have been an absolute splendid panel and we have really very much enjoyed talking to you and I am sorry we have not got a great deal more time, but I am anxious to get our final panel on for our grilling. Thank you all very much indeed. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Lucy Davidson, Anglia Ruskin; Ken Harris, University of Wolverhampton; Gemma Jerome, University of Liverpool; Luke Pollard, Manchester Metropolitan University; Anand Raja, University of Birmingham; and Steve Topazio, University of Portsmouth, gave evidence. Q225 Chairman: We welcome our final panel for today and just to warn you that we are likely to have a division on the political parties and electoral report stage, new clause 3. I do not know, but the minister is winding up at the moment, and if we are can I assure you that we will be back. We will not just leave you here in limbo! Welcome our final panel, Lucy Davidson from Anglia Ruskin University, Ken Harris from Wolverhampton University, Gemma Jerome from Liverpool University, Luke Pollard from Manchester Metropolitan University, Anand Raja from Birmingham and Steve Topazio from Portsmouth University. Welcome to all of you and if I have mispronounced your names, I apologise. You have two minutes, Lucy, to tell us what is great about your university and what significant change you would make. Ms Davidson: Good evening. Basically, I would be classed as a mature student. I don't have a string of A-levels or pre-courses, I have just got basic GCSEs and a lot of life experience and four children. What I consider to be a good university experience is a place where you can go to learn, where you feel supported by the staff within it. So it doesn't matter if you've got all the modern facilities and all the best teachers. If they don't care about the people within it, you might as well not have any of it. I personally have experienced this. I'm in the first year of my nursing diploma course. My daughter was diagnosed with a very serious illness and that was when I discovered what a good university I am at. My facilitator gave me her mobile phone number, was phoning me at the hospital and I had all the support of the university, support for placement, and it has enabled me to stay on my course. Nursing is something I've wanted to do for ten years. I love it because it's rewarding, it's different every day and you're part of a team. So basically Anglia Ruskin has proved itself to me. We have this thing called the IBL, inquiry-based learning where basically you learn as you go as part of a group. So we are told how many hours we are going to have contact with our tutors. We do have access to our tutors, be it online, or I can phone my facilitator. I am a student rep and I do, I email her regularly and I also speak to her on the phone. So I think it all comes down to the support of the staff within it and the quality of those staff. So that for me is what a good university is all about. Q226 Chairman: Okay, you have run out of time so you cannot tell us how it could be improved, but that is a very, very powerful statement. Gemma? Miss Jerome: It should be about two minutes and twenty seconds for me - Q227 Chairman: No, you have two minutes! Miss Jerome: Okay. In light of the recent Burgess report debating the potential to more broadly reward students' achievements in a whole range of activities whilst at university, I would like to highlight the role of the students' union in creating a good student experience. A strongly innovative students' union offers inclusive, supportive and meaningful opportunities for all students to participate in a decision-making process that shapes not only their academic experiences but the environment within they make relationships, live, work and play. In my time at the University of Liverpool I volunteered extensively both in the capacity of student representative and student trustee as well as in various community-based projects. The Liverpool Guild of Students actively encourages their members to engage with each other and the wider community in full awareness that student volunteering is an important asset to the local economy and that volunteering can improve a student's prospects and employability whilst fulfilling an altruistic benevolence and the desire to feel part of a community. The Liverpool Guild of Students is also seeking to more effectively accredit student volunteering and is exploring the opportunity to develop volunteer support and enhance the role of extra-curricula activity in the curriculum. Personally, my decision to spend two months of my summer holiday between first and second year at university as a volunteer in a local authority planning office brought real and tangible relevance to subsequent theoretical study. My experience fully exemplifies the notion of capturing student potential versus simply focusing on academic achievement as inspired by our new declaration. Although I present a strong case for seeing extra-curricula and curricula complementary activities, as a student from a wide participation background, I am fully aware of the boundaries to participation. Primarily the concern is growing amongst undergraduates to seek paid employment to alleviate the rising cost of living and consequently how to balance the trade-off between mounting student debt and academic attainment. Debates surrounding a national bursary scheme may raise questions about the validity of an institutional lottery of sorts for bursary schemes but does little to address the mounting body of evidence exemplified currently by the NUS Broke and Broken Campaign, but the student fee system in this country is essentially in need of a robust evidence-based review. Q228 Chairman: Okay. I am going to have to stop you there. Thank you very much indeed. You got most of it in. Luke? Mr Pollard: Mine is going to be slightly more short and sweet really. I think what contributes to a successful university experience is an institution which actively seeks values and acts on student feedback. It should be more than a tool to just attain statistic to put out to prospective students. Universities need to address issues. They need to improve delivery content and support based upon that feedback. I think this can be aided by a strong collaboration with the student union, their course or faculty reps and creating a structured process which allows students to easily feedback to their universities. Particularly myself in Manchester Metropolitan I get three meetings a year to meet with the entire faculty. It makes it very difficult if I have an issue presented by a group of students in October to wait until February to raise that issue across the whole board. In the future, I would personally like to see more integration between private and public organisations and universities through their degree programmes. I would like to see students having more opportunity to apply their theory in real settings. This morning I managed to obtain a placement this summer at Defra. That was done off my own bat, not through my university. The only option I had presented to me is a year long sandwich placement. I took an extra year at college and I would also like to run in the student union at some point, which then would already place me two years behind the standard level. I then don't feel I want to fall three years behind by doing a full year, so I think more can be done to integrate shorter placements onto the actual course. Q229 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Steve? Mr Topazio: I think the main factor which makes a good university experience is the provision of support and advice and mainly how a university provides that. It is also a home away from home. Students get dropped off on the first day of term and for me it was the first time I had ever spent more than about 24 hours away from my parents, so it is important how they provide that. I think an integral part of that is the students' union provisions they make. For me the students' union were the good guys at the university. They kept me going. They showed me the extra-curricula activities I could do. I didn't enjoy my course in the first year. I really wanted to leave, but it was the extra-curricula activities. I did course work, playing sport and they were the things that kept me going. Extra-curricula activities are important. Sport societies are there to help students. They give you much more of an experience and I think that students don't go to university any more just to get a degree. You get students who look at the sports facilities and look at the provisions that are available, which brings me on to what I would actually change about the university. I feel students need to be offered much more than just the degree classifications there are now. The system of a first, the two ones and the 2.2s for me didn't show what I'd gained from university and the fact that I was a course rep with the school for a year was nowhere to be seen on my degree classification. I got a 2.1 and I averaged 60.08, which meant I just scraped a C. My housemate got 69.4. There is a gap of about ten per cent there, but on the transcript we had exactly the same marks. They didn't take into account the extra things we did, the fact that I was a course rep, the fact that I now work within the students' union, none of those things are actually shown on the piece of paper that I got given and I think that's something that needs to be addressed so that all the stuff we do is out there because I don't think currently a 2.1 to me just says I went to university, it doesn't tell me what I did there or the employers. Q230 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, Steve, for now. Mr Raja: Dear Members of the Committee and House, I am delighted about speaking here. The best thing a university can offer you is an excellent course because it is learning that a university stands for and must. I will only refer to personal experience in taking my psychology course at Birmingham as an example. We are taught by very good teachers and the lecturers are fairly well organised! I have found that if one follows the lectures with regular reading and understanding one begins to enjoy one's time. Approachable staff also enhances the quality of the course and my teachers are usually up for a chat. Last year, a few days before the exams, I took a full hour of a lecturer I cannot name. I asked very silly questions, sometimes twice. Still he answered with a lot of sympathy and I left feeling almost guilty about his kindness. So I have talked about learning and enjoyment, but does enjoyable learning mean easy learning? A lot of students may think so, I included at times. "What do you guys want, an easy ride, cheap beer and high grades?" a rather cynical lecturer told me! But a part of me and a part of the rest of us can enjoy and do enjoy learning for its own sake. Last week, braving terrible snow around all of us came to an informal non-assessed psychology workshop. My little friend Julie is always rattling on about a smashing two page note she wrote about what she calls the problem primarily in cognitive science, again non-assessed work. Against all this, we all know that our courses are organised around remembering information for exams and with our guide books and text books and timetables that is how we approached it. How many of us have tucked sheets of paper in our socks to exam halls and how many of us are going to pop memory boosting pills in the twenty-first century? But talking of social sciences at least can the university harbour, even encourage this idle, uncommitted romantic, almost illegal interest in learning that is alive and thriving in the Julies and Michaels of this world? Q231 Chairman: We are going to leave that question hanging there at that particular point. Thank you very much indeed. Ken? Mr Harris: What I think makes a good university experience is a clear and defined career path. Myself personally, I've been working for many years. I come from a single parent background and it's a career change, so my reason for going to university is because I just want a whole new changing career. So while at university I like to know that as well as getting my degree after the highest possible standard of teaching, I want that to be enriched with other activities that are going to obviously help me in my future career, whether that be social, getting involved in activities within university, but more importantly it's interaction with different people. Wolverhampton University is very culturally diverse and it is all those elements within the university that make the experience so much better. It's not just about learning, it's about also finding the balance between your personal life, home life and family life. Unfortunately, I was able to work the first year on leaving my job without working. This second year, yes, I've got a few debts that I'm accumulating quite a lot. I'd like to be able to work but my work will just suffer for it, so I'm just not able to work. I'm going to leave university with £25,000 worth of debt and that's after leaving a job where I was earning £25,000 a year. So that's the one thing that I would like to change at university, the amount of debt. It hasn't put me off studying because when I graduate I'm going to be falling into a job at that figure and higher, but it does make me question whether I want to carry on with further education after I've got my degree, purely because of how much it's going to cost. Chairman: Okay. That is a good point to end on there. Gordon, can we just try and zip through these, please? Q232 Mr Marsden: Yes. Thank you, Chairman. I am going to ask you all the questions I asked the previous group. Did you go for the course or the university? Ms Davidson: I went for the course. Miss Jerome: Both. Mr Pollard: The course, then university. Mr Topazio: University, location. Mr Raja: The course. Mr Harris: I am doing a joint history and deaf studies, so I only really had two choices, which was Bristol and Wolverhampton. So living at home - I live in Birmingham, so it's easier to commute to Wolverhampton than it is to Bristol. Q233 Mr Marsden: That is interesting. With the group we have got here, unlike the previous group, you have actually got more experience coming from non-A level backgrounds into university, to perhaps I could ask the same sort of questions I asked the previous group about the extent perhaps to which you personally found you had problems or did not have problems given that most of you did not have straight A-level qualifications, but perhaps more importantly whether in fact your peers have found that. Who wants to have a go on that one? Ms Davidson: I will have a go. Basically, I may probably be one of the least qualified on my course, but I do have a nursing background in that I've been a healthcare assistant as well as having children and on my course most of us are mums so we have come from different backgrounds. But what was lovely was that when I was interviewed they took into consideration my experience. When the staff nurse who was helping to interview me with the other gentleman said, "Oh, but she hasn't done any academia since she's been at school. How's she going to cope with all the essays and all the rest of it?" and he said, "She'll get there," and I have to say that I got the top mark in that first paper, because it's what you put into it. If you work hard you can get anywhere. Mr Raja: I have an unconventional background in the sense that I don't have A-levels. I have an international degree. I think having an A-level here especially in the subjects you are studying at the university is quite beneficial because there is a significant amount of overlap between what is taught at the A-levels and what is taught at the university level. That certainly helps people who have done A-levels in that subject prior, yes. Q234 Mr Marsden: Gemma, can I just come to you because I know that you started a course at Edinburgh and then had to drop out. At Liverpool did they take that into account? Did it exempt you from any of the work you would otherwise have had to do in the first year at Liverpool or not? Miss Jerome: No. They did take into account as far as they wanted a copy of my certificate of education, because you do receive a kind of acknowledgement for one year of the degree, but in terms of the amount of work that I do it's just the same. Q235 Mr Marsden: So there is no credit transfer, if I can put it that way? Miss Jerome: Maybe in the overall - at the end of my degree, but not outright, no. Q236 Mr Marsden: So you were not exempted from the first bit of the course? Miss Jerome: No. Q237 Mr Boswell: Just quickly some fairly short responses, if I may. Contact time, how much do you get and is it enough? Time spent outside the classroom, part-time work, is that getting in the way of your studies, and a little bit of a handle, if you have got it, on whether or not you had to work as hard to qualify for a degree as counterparts in other universities? Who would like to start on that? Mr Harris: My total contact time is 12 hours based on four modules of a three hour lecture/seminar and the rest of the time is obviously self-study. So on the selfish side, they say if I am happy to have my head not buried in a book every night and do my extra research then that's going to benefit me and that's going to get me a first. If my follow students are going to be in the pub drinking or not working then that's going to be reflected in their grades, but we are adult learners and we don't want to be treated like children. From speaking to my fellow students, a lot of the feedback that I'm getting is that we don't want to be told what we have to do, "You have to do this and you have to do that." It should be around studies, I'd agree. Q238 Mr Boswell: You are in charge? Mr Harris: Yes. Q239 Mr Boswell: Okay. Does anyone else want to come in on that? Luke? Mr Pollard: I get approximately 15 hours a week contact time. At the moment it's getting particularly frustrating when I make the time to go to lectures and it's simply a lecturer reading a Powerpoint which, as was mentioned earlier on, I could effectively get from a virtual learning environment. Q240 Chairman: Does that happen a lot? Mr Pollard: Yes. To be honest, yes. Outside of that, I do 15 hours paid employment in the students' union on the reception. I do 15 and 20 hours a week on my own business and societies and then around 20 hours a week personal study. Q241 Chairman: You are busy! Steve? Mr Topazio: I have four hours of contact time with my son Ian, which I didn't even have to turn up to those four hours when I was there and, similar to Luke, it was lots of stuff that I could have got off a virtual learning environment. It was Powerpoint being regurgitated to me. So as such I spend around 20 hours a week in paid employment during my final year and around the same amount of time working in the students' union and voluntary work, so I spend a lot more time not doing the university work than I did doing it and that's because I could sit at home and read it off at home. Q242 Mr Boswell: So the actual formal set up is four hours contact time and 20 hours part-time employment? Mr Topazio: Yes. I was at university basically not doing the course a lot of the time. Q243 Mr Boswell: Do you think that is the same book in other places, Gemma, Liverpool? Miss Jerome: It's quite a small time that I studied. I have eight hours contact time at the moment. I would just like to bring up a point Luke mentioned about the culture of Powerpoint presentations at lectures. We discussed this a lot in student consultative committees and there is a concern that students aren't coming to lectures because there's a lot of networks that we have - Q244 Mr Boswell: Slides? Miss Jerome: Yes, they get them beforehand. But I really think that's a falsehood. I think the value of being part of a lecture environment where questions can be asked and lecturers can respond, that is invaluable. Q245 Dr Harris: Do you not get a chance to ask questions about what you are complaining or commenting on? Mr Topazio: Yes. To be honest, the material covered is quite basic in the general terms of it. The problem is that we do have some lectures where there is no more value added than what is on the Powerpoint. It is literally a lecturer standing up at the front. Personally, I feel anything that I'm not getting there, I can see the lecturer one on one or get out the textbook. Dr Harris: Because you cannot ask questions. Q246 Mr Boswell: Can I just ask Lucy about her experience coming from the non-conventional background? Have you found you have needed more contact time? Do you use the tutors more than people who have come through a conventional route? Ms Davidson: I ask the most questions, but then I get the answers, so I think you get out of it what you put into it. I suppose I will keep continuing asking questions because that's how you learn. We have three days a week where we're in either lessons or on placement on a ward. We have two days which is self-directed study and I do feel that I probably spend double the amount of time everyone else does. It probably takes me a lot longer to get there, but I get there in the end and I am hoping that by the end of the four years I'll get there a lot faster. Q247 Chairman: Splendid! Anand, very briefly. Mr Raja: I would say what seems to be really coming across from all the comments that we are getting on the table is that one contact time seems to be sometimes sufficient, sometimes insufficient and, as I spoke about in my submission, you supplement it by a lot of informal interaction and informal help, but I think it is also, as the speaker pointed out, if all that a lecturer does is simply put up a Powerpoint presentation and put up a lot of information from a text book, then that isn't really very uplifting and that's really not something that will bring you to the lecture hall and that is something that maybe needs to be corrected. Mr Harris: I just want to make the point that my university would have lecture times and a lot of people look at it a it is a short amount of contact time, but if you need extra help, such as our university has got systems in place such as study skills where you can get extra help if needed and you can always arrange to have personal one-to-one time with your own tutor, but it is more about getting the lecturers to engage with the pupils, students. Q248 Chairman: Could I just move on to you, Clive, and could I just very quickly run along the panel. I asked the first panel whether in fact all lecturers ought to be qualified in teaching in order to be able to lecture at universities. Do you feel that that should be a statutory requirement? Ms Davidson: No, I think they should be passionate about their subject and want to teach you it, and as long as they are passionate they don't need the qualification. Q249 Chairman: So that is a no. Gemma? Miss Jerome: I would say no. Mr Pollard: I would say no as well because of the time spent getting that formal qualification. Mr Topazio: No. Mr Raja: No. Mr Harris: It depends on the subject. Q250 Dr Iddon: It is the same question I asked the other group. How important is it to you that your lecturers are engaged in research if not scholarship, starting with Lucy, please? Ms Davidson: It's the same as I said before. Your lecturer needs to actually be interested in their subject because otherwise it's going to come across to you and you're not going to learn. If they're bored before they start you are not going to learn anything from that experience and you need to be able to challenge them and say, "But what if? What if?" and just keep asking the questions because that's how you broaden yourself and you learn. Miss Jerome: Well, the University of Liverpool prides itself on knowledge exchanges and being like a research intensive university, but from the students' point of view I don't think there's any tension between being a research strong institution and a teaching strong institution. I would say maybe from a subjective point of view strong research does impact on teaching positively because there will be a more relevant knowledge base delivered in lectures. So I would say that there is a degree of importance but it's not essential. Q251 Dr Iddon: Could I just ask what the disadvantage is, because you mentioned the tension. What is the tension? Miss Jerome: No, I said from the students' point of view there's no tension. Mr Pollard: I would say yes, it's nice to know that the material being delivered is up to day. However, it shouldn't be at the detriment of students being able to contact lecturers. I have some lecturers I am only available to get them maybe two hours a week, which if I can't make that session, I then can't contact them. That's no good really. Mr Topazio: I'm on the fence because I found my lecturers supplemented their lecture style very well with their research and their experiences and it helped me a great deal with my dissertation, the fact that we went to Iceland and helped with their research to help with our research. It was a great learning curve. However, the downside was that when it came to the exams the lecturer and the tutor weren't available to me when I needed them because they were doing research, so I kind of had the good and the bad. Mr Raja: I think it's good and bad with me, too, because if they're engaged with a person's scholarship, which many of the people in my department are, then obviously they are very clever and very involved and they know where to take you, basically. But as it happens, as people get cleverer and smarter they dislike talking to undergraduates! I think that's a disadvantage. Mr Harris: Yes, I have to say that it's certainly an advantage because I expect my lecturers to be experts in their fields. For example, in my deaf studies subject my lecturers are engaged in research, which obviously helps me because it means that I'm getting current information. Q252 Dr Iddon: My second question is about the classification of degrees. Is it time for a change or are you happy to be classed as first class, upper second, lower second, and so on? Mr Harris: I think the system's fine. I'm aiming for a first. I'm on target for a first, so I don't want it to change because that's what I'm aiming for, but I do think that as well as the first you should have something attached to the degree that's going to detail exactly why it's a first and what was involved in my achieving a first. Q253 Dr Iddon: A bit more detail. Good luck with your first, by the way. Mr Raja: No, I think the current classification is all right. Mr Topazio: I think it needs to be changed. Whilst the system does show what kind of level you're in, there's a wide range within those levels on where you can be, as I pointed out with what I got and what my housemate got. There is a very big variation in our skill base. Q254 Dr Iddon: How are you suggesting changing it, by giving percentages? Mr Topazio: I like the idea, though whilst in my case it meant that my percentage would have been lower it would have shown a fairer reflection of my learning outcomes and experiences. But also on top of that you need to include a record of learning as to what other activities - Q255 Dr Iddon: So you are agreeing with Ken really? Mr Topazio: Almost, yes. Mr Pollard: I second that. I would like to see a percentage system. I don't see why someone who does get 60.2 per cent and 69.7 per cent are classed in the same band. Q256 Dr Iddon: So you are sticking to your previous statement. Gemma? Miss Jerome: I think the proposed record of achievement is potentially really progressive because I think it could look at students' performance more holistically. I think to focus too much on the fact of whether it be a percentage mark - personally I would like to take the opportunity to say that it's potential is broader in that it could describe each student's performance in their time at university more personally, so you could pick out whether people are particularly good at leadership or representation, participation and the kind of more personalised skills. Ms Davidson: Basically, I'm doing the diploma so I'm not going to get a first or a second, I'm going to get a diploma, hopefully, and at the end of it I will also get a report and it is dependent on that report whether or not I will get work, so it is different for me. Dr Iddon: Thank you very much all of you. Q257 Dr Harris: Just following on that question, Ken, good luck with getting your first. Do you think it would be fair if you went for a job and the job was given to someone instead with a first class degree from Cambridge? Do you think that would be justified if you are otherwise equal? Mr Harris: Of course it's not justified. It happens, obviously not as much as it used to. That's when you need to look at the difference between a polytechnic and a university. It's always going to be there. It is a fact. I mean, if I had the choice I'd go to Cambridge and if they were offering the same course then I suppose in honesty I probably would. No, actually, I wouldn't. No. Q258 Dr Harris: My point is, can you justify that because some people would say that a degree from Cambridge is worth more for the same classification than one from a university that is not so selective of the students. Now, that may sound harsh, but I am asking you and the rest of the panel whether you think that's fair or unjustified because if you get a first from whatever institution it should be considered to be of the same value? Mr Harris: What I think is that all degrees should be exactly the same, whether one goes to Cambridge, whether one goes to Wolverhampton, whether they go to Birmingham University. So it shouldn't matter whether I've gone to Cambridge or not, it should all count equally. Q259 Dr Harris: If the corollary of that was that while 20 per cent of Cambridge students, only three per cent of University of Wolverhampton students got a first and therefore there would be less firsts going, if that was the way to equalise it, as it were, would that be reasonable or do you think the top 20 per cent from whichever institution, or ten, whatever it is, should get the first class degree? Mr Harris: Personally, if I achieve a first at Wolverhampton then I'd say it's worth more than a first from Cambridge because I know that I've worked really hard for it, which is exactly what I do. I don't just sort of throw some words down in an essay. I do put a lot of effort into it. Q260 Dr Harris: I am not saying you are not working hard for it. Do the rest want to comment on that line of questioning? Mr Pollard: I think it's hard to say a degree from Cambridge compared with, say, a degree from Manchester Metropolitan would be viewed in the same light by an employer, but I think it is right to say that the top ten per cent, or whatever per cent across all degrees should be given that top classification and it shouldn't vary across institutions. Q261 Dr Harris: In respect of the quality of the student? Mr Pollard: No. Q262 Dr Harris: In other words, does that not undermine your previous answer, because let us say in Cambridge the top ten per cent get over 90 per cent but in Manchester Metropolitan the top ten per cent get over 65 per cent on a like for like basis - I know they have different exams, but let us say - then that would contradict your previous answer, which would be that the percentage result should be what determines your classification, not whether you are in the quintile or ten percentile or whatever? Mr Pollard: The second answer was based on the current system, not what I would like to see introduced. Q263 Dr Harris: My question was, what would you like to see. Miss Jerome: I have just two quick points. I think in the context of wider participation, I really is more important that students are getting into higher education and putting less emphasis on - which is of secondary importance - which university they get into. Secondly, I think I would question an employer if they were looking at my degree based on where I went to university. I probably wouldn't actually choose that employer. I would flip the question round. Q264 Dr Harris: I asked the previous panel, I do not know whether you heard, whether they had any evidence that you could cheat, that your company-students could cheat and copy and do just as well, apparently, by using stuff downloaded or just having someone else's work. Are you aware of this? Is it an issue for you at all? Is it is not, I will move on. Ms Davidson: There has been some plagiarism at our university and what it was was that people didn't quite understand that if something is not yours you need to reference it and admit to it. So there's been some people who've done it quite innocently and some people who've just done it because they're trying to cheat. Q265 Dr Harris: We only know about it because it has been found out. I am asking you, because you are closer to it than I am, whether you think it is more widespread than the tip of the iceberg argument? Miss Jerome: I think it's a problem with referencing. I think that's what I've experienced as a student and a student representative, it is just the case that people aren't fully aware of how to properly reference their work. Mr Topazio: I have a great friend who is sitting on the University's disciplinary committee, which is quite good fun with some things, but plagiarism isn't a big thing that's out there. In the year there have been about two or three cases of outright copying. I know personally as a student there are cases of mis-referencing and little bits of copying, but I don't think it's very easy to just lift an entire essay and get away with it. I think the lecturers are experienced enough to know what is a good piece of work that you've written yourself. Q266 Dr Harris: Do you in your institute use a software system to run all your work through? Mr Topazio: As of next year. It is in a trial period at the moment. Mr Harris: Personally, I don't know how it is possible to copy work and just insert it into your text book because everyone's got their own unique style of essay writing and surely that's picked up by the lecturers, but at my university they've got facilities in place to obviously spot plagiarism. One thing they're bringing in is electronic submission to obviously make it a lot easier. Q267 Dr Harris: My last question. Clearly, you are a selected sample because you were not put off by debt, becoming mature students. So I am not going to ask you did debt put you off because you are a selected sample for a research issue, but do you think there were contemporaries of yours who did not have your drive or perhaps your exact circumstances who might have been put off going and taking the path you have because of the prospect of emerging with debt? Mr Topazio: Yes, one of my friends from school with exactly the same qualifications at A-level, he went straight into a workplace job instead of coming to university because he didn't want the debt that would be there at the end of the road and he's just as qualified to go to university as I am. His family background was worse off than mine, so he didn't want the debt on his shoulders. Miss Jerome: I think it's a broader problem than just debt and financial implications. I think we could move into a debate about social capital. It's more about for some people there might be a problem of debt, but it's really they just have no history of people going to university, and that might be mature students as well. They maybe feel it's not appropriate to go to university. Chairman: I am going to move on to Ian Stewart. You have got the last word. Q268 Ian Stewart: In those circumstances, in the current economic climate is it still worthwhile going to university? Ms Davidson: Yes, you've got to because you have to make the best of yourself and why should you sit back and not push yourself and go for your ambitions and dreams just because of things around you? Surely by going to university and making something of it you are going to make your life better and make the climate better? Miss Jerome: I would say for myself personally, absolutely, I would still go to university. There's evidence that a graduate job creates a job somewhere else, but I would also like to emphasise that I don't advocate that higher education is the only path for everyone. I think sometimes it's not the appropriate path and the Government push to raise the levels of their graduates isn't necessarily wise for all demographics and just for all individuals. So there are alternative paths that are equally valuable. Mr Pollard: Yes, I think in the current climate and what's upcoming perhaps education is the best place to be rather than in full-time employment! Also, I'd like to echo what was mentioned in the earlier session about soft skills. I personally chose to go to Manchester Metropolitan because they were flexible enough that they would give me the time to do my extra-curricula activities and improve my soft skills, something which my peers haven't experienced at perhaps a leading university. Mr Topazio: For me, yes, definitely going to university. I wouldn't have done it any other way. What I come out of it with, if I become a teacher, if I do into a job that doesn't require a degree I think is irrelevant. The experience I gain from being there and the life skills I don't think you can get from just leaving school at 18 an going into a job. However, there is the flip side, which is if you go to university and you spend three years, you build up the debt and then you go into a job where you could have gone into it four years ago. Was it worthwhile? It's an question I can't answer because I plan to become a teacher, which you can't do if you haven't got a degree. But I think it's definitely an experience. Mr Raja: I don't know much about the financial aspect, but for me personally I would still come to a university. I was always interested in doing the subject that I am doing, which is what brought me into my university and which will bring me into universities whatever the employment climate. Mr Harris: It is definitely worth it as a mature student and I believe in my university mature students make up 60 per cent, so most of us are actually doing it because we've got a career path that we're following. Affordable? I'm struggling this year but that's mainly because the cost of living is so high. So out of £117 that I get for my student finance, £85 of that goes on my rent and I'm left with the rest to pay the rest of my bills, that's the heating and transport, books. Q269 Ian Stewart: You were here before and you will have heard me ask the question about bursaries. Currently your institutions have bursary systems, but would you be in favour of a national bursary system, and if there was a national bursary system should it be geared towards assisting those who need the most financially? Ms Davidson: It depends because if your partner has a good job you would be penalised but that doesn't make your situation any better. So you could be penalised and, to be honest, there's a lot of girls on my course where if you were to take the bursary away you would lose all the nurses. We would all walk because we have children, childcare and petrol to pay for and my bursary pays my childcare and my petrol. I don't see it, it goes on that, and without it I couldn't do the course. Miss Jerome: I would say, yes, I will be in favour of a national bursary scheme but alongside that amount of extra funding. I think we need more focus on further education as well and even schools who are preparing students for higher education, and the schools that are necessary. Q270 Ian Stewart: When you say "preparing" do you mean the financial skills, economic skills? Miss Jerome: No, I mean the wider - not to have too much emphasis on finance. I think it is the broader picture. Mr Pollard: I think a national scheme would be best, personally, I think on the incremental scale as is the maintenance grant at the moment, would be most preferable. Mr Topazio: For me, yes. On a local scale at Portsmouth, I didn't know about the bursaries until my final year when the NUS told me they existed and that we'd under-spent our university by a few hundred thousand pounds, so obviously it wasn't a big issue for the university, they were quite happy - well, not happy but they can get it out there to the students and we didn't know about it. I don't know whether a national scheme would work any better, but I think it would and I think it would be fairer to widen the participation of more students out there. Mr Raja: I think the national bursary scheme will be a good thing. Mr Harris: Yes, again, a national bursary scheme but we should look at the individual rather than the family background. An example is a friend of mine whose dad and brother worked at the same address. It meant that he was known to the bursary, so he had to move out in order to - Q271 Ian Stewart: So it is splitting families up? Mr Harris: Yes. It was like his dad's income, his brother's income had no effect on what he was having, yet he was still judged by that. So as long as it's judged on an individual basis rather than families or the household, it should be looked at that way. Ian Stewart: Thanks for that. Chairman: On that note, can I thank our second panel and to say that we agonised as to how we could involve students more in this inquiry and you have all demonstrated that we were absolutely right to do so. Thank you very, very much indeed for all your efforts this afternoon and could I also put on record my thanks to the Committee for staying much later than normal in the afternoon. |