Dr.
Ladyman: I can see Mr. Pomeroy is getting
agitated. Brian
Pomeroy: I had not read the Bill; I have been trying
to read clause 19 while you were speaking. Am I wrong in thinking that
“carelessness” applies to the provider, rather than the
individual? Someone who deliberately makes an incorrect declaration
gets a £300 fine. Am I wrong in saying that the carelessness
provision is for providers who make wrong returns to the HMRC, rather
than
individuals?
Dr.
Ladyman: That is not the way I look at it, but you might
be right, and I will look at it
again. Brian
Pomeroy: I read it very quickly as you were
speaking.
Q
46Dr.
Ladyman: But do you think that £300 is about
right? Sharon
Collard: I think that it is very difficult to say. As
Matthew said, people are passported from eligible benefits that, I
hope, they are entitled to. We also have money laundering regulations
in place, so we can undertake identity checks. That is another form of
check. Those checks would, I hope, rule out somebody using somebody
else’s voucher. For fines that deal with tax compliance to be
effective, it is crucial that you know about them. You are not going to
put off people who are determined to defraud the system no matter
what—£300 would not do it—but the penalties have
to be clear.
Q
47Dr.
Ladyman: One other area of exploitation is continuing
eligibility, which I may have to explore with
the Minister in Committee. Being on jobseeker’s allowance is one
of the eligibility criteria, but we hope that people are not going to
claim jobseeker’s allowance for the two years necessary for the
account to mature. If somebody opens an account when they first become
unemployed, who do they declare it to when they get a job again and are
therefore no longer entitled to the gateway saving
account? Sharon
Collard: I think that there have to be clear
regulations about what happens to people in that situation.
Teresa
Perchard: I understood that eligibility continued, so
at the point you are eligible, you can have the voucher and open an
account. Your circumstances changing does not remove your entitlement
to the account. That makes it simpler.
Q
48Dr.
Ladyman: So are you saying that, in the unlikely event of
the people of South Thanet turfing me out at the next election, in the
short period while I was claiming JSA, I could open a gateway saving
account? Teresa
Perchard: You will be one of those people on JSA who
is in and out of low-paid work perhaps. That is the trade-off between
having something that is simple to design, deliver and market and that
does not have too many costs and being able to weed people out of the
system.
Sharon
Collard: If the premise is that people remain
eligible even if their circumstances change, I would like to point out
that people moving off income support and JSA are unlikely to be moving
into highly paid employment. We know that that is the case. They may
still continue to be eligible, because they will be on working tax
credits.
Matthew
Wakefield: And moving off those benefits and seeing
that they have a stream of income coming in might be exactly the right
time for them to think about whether they want to start
saving.
The
Chairman: I think that that question from the hon. Member
for South Thanet brings us to the end of our session if you do not have
any further questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the four
witnesses for giving their time and expertise. There were some very
helpful observations and advice to prepare us for the line-by-line
examination of the Bill, which starts next week. The Committee will sit
again at 4.30 this afternoon. The room will be locked between now and
then, so any material that hon. Members have can be left here with
confidence. I would normally call the Whip to move that further
consideration on the Bill be adjourned, but I will ask the hon. Member
for South Thanet to do so.
Ordered,
That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Dr.
Ladyman.) 12.8
pm Adjourned
till this day at half past four
o’clock.
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