Mr.
Curry: The right hon. Lady must not be allowed to get away
with the idea that Conservative Members are indifferent to the problem
of people not knowing what their council does or the differentiation
between
councils. We all subscribe to dealing with that, and we have all often
had cases in our surgeries of people not knowing who their councillor
is, let alone anything else. The problem is not the Bill’s
intentions—we agree with them. Our job, however, is to
scrutinise how those intentions are delivered in practice. We are
concerned that the mechanism chosen by the Government will not work
effectively and will place demands on councils that cannot be
fulfilled. This might be a highly improbable thesis, but if I were to
go and spend five days somewhere—Macclesfield or
Doncaster—as an IT consultant, the Bill would require the local
authority to inform me of its duties. It is the mechanisms that we
would like the Minister to explain, not the intentions, about which
there is no dispute.
Ms
Winterton: Once again, I listened very carefully to the
right hon. Gentleman. He was talking about dictating from here how
every single local authority should fulfil a duty to every single
person who comes into contact with it. I do not think that is what we
ought to be doing. Again, I feel that there is a certain amount of
trivialisation and ridicule from Opposition Members about a genuine
attempt to address a problem that we all know is
real. When
drawing up the Bill, we took note of the recommendation of the
Councillors Commission that we have a duty to ensure that local
citizens are aware of the different responsibilities and services of
local authorities, councillors and so on. However, we have also made it
very clear that it will for local councils to decide how best to fulfil
that duty and then, obviously, through the usual ways in which we
monitor local councils—through comprehensive area assessments
and organisations like the Audit Commission—we will be able to
get an idea of how that is being fulfilled. We will give out guidance
with suggestions as to how that can be done, but we do have to trust
our local councillors—[Interruption.] I am sorry if
Opposition Members think that it is hilarious to trust local
councillors. Having taken councillors’ recommendations on how to
improve the situation, we then have to say that this is about a
partnership between central and local government. Yes, we have taken
the councillors’ recommendations about how to ensure that we can
give out guidance and monitor how people fulfil this duty, but at the
same time, as always, it will be local circumstances and responses that
dictate how that happens.
Julia
Goldsworthy: If I understand the Minister correctly, she
is saying that a central duty will be imposed on local authorities, but
we will have to rely on trust regarding delivery. That seems to be a
complete contradiction, which is why Opposition Members were
laughing. If
these duties are going to be a requirement for local authorities, why
will not the exact same duty be imposed on central Government
Departments, because individuals find it just as difficult to
understand exactly how they access entitlements relating to them? I
cannot understand why principal authorities are being singled out for
all these responsibilities because the delivery of public services is
clearly about more than just one organisation.
Ms
Winterton: While central Government can put forward the
duty through legislation and make recommendations in guidance, the hon.
Lady knows that measurement is about saying what is most appropriate to
local circumstances. There will be different ways of
ensuring that people in different areas have the information. I was
saying that we need to trust local authorities to look at the best ways
to get that information out locally, because different circumstances
will need to be
considered.
Mr.
Goodman: I do not envy the Minister for having to take
this Bill through, but I am going to try to approach this in a
different way from my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and
Ripon. He gave a perfectly sensible example, which we all accept, of a
constituent who comes into the Member of Parliament’s office and
does not know what their local authority does. There will be a certain
number of them each year. The simple question is: how many of those
constituents are going to get an appreciation of their local
authority’s democratic arrangements as a result of this
Bill?
Ms
Winterton: I shall give way to the right hon. Member for
Skipton and Ripon.
Mr.
Curry: Does the Minister accept that the Bill would
require Craven district council and North Yorkshire county council to
inform somebody who commutes from Pendle to work in Johnson and Johnson
in Gargrave, which is just outside Skipton? That is a very concrete
example because a significant proportion of the work force comes from
Lancashire. What information should be communicated? Equally, what
information should the Leeds metropolitan authority give to someone who
commutes from Skipton to work in
Leeds? 11.30
am
Ms
Winterton: It is extremely important that commuters have
good information about decisions on the running of particular bus
services, for example. The right hon. Gentleman has talked a lot about
commuters and I draw his attention to the fact that the Local Transport
Act 2008 tried to give greater powers to local authorities to introduce
quality contracts, when appropriate, to improve the experience for
commuters. Despite the opposition of Conservative councillors,
Conservative Front Benchers have said that they will repeal the ability
of local authorities to introduce quality contracts, which is directly
against what local people wanted and directly against what Conservative
councillors were asking for. I raise that because I think that this is
part of the Opposition Front Benchers saying, “We know best; we
want to know every single detail of how local authorities are going to
implement this duty.” I do not think we should be dictating that
from
here. I
would like the individual whom the right hon. Gentleman talked about to
feel that they have proper information about the responsibility of the
council for emptying their dustbins and providing social services. They
should know about the decisions and responsibilities of councillors.
They should know whether the social services department is working in
conjunction with the health authorities, and they should be clear about
the different responsibilities and how they can influence them, for
example through the new local involvement networks that are asking for
greater accountability on the delivery of those services.
When that
person gets on the bus or local train and travels to their place of
work, I would like them to have information about whether the transport
authority is subsidising their particular bus route or whether it has
reached proper agreement with the bus company as to what charges should
be made if they are someone over 60 with a bus pass. When they get to
their place of work, I would like them to know what the local council
is doing to support their business or place of work, whether it is
introducing measures that help or hinder the way the company operates,
and whether it is providing good training locally. I would seek to
ensure that that person felt that they could access information about
services and have an input into shaping those services.
There is no
doubt that this is a challenge. It is a challenge for us in central
Government to ensure that we are able to follow the recommendations of
the Councillors Commission through the Bill. It is a challenge for us
to be able to provide the right framework for local authorities to
fulfil the duty that has been laid down. It is also a challenge for us
to work with colleagues in local government to make sure that we
continue dialogue on how we can increase participation in our
democracy.
Mr.
Raynsford: My right hon. Friend has made a persuasive case
for the importance of extending information to the public, which I
fully support. Opposition Members have highlighted transport as an
issue. As a London Member, I am conscious that, today, London citizens
again face disruption to their transport services and that the
information provided by the Mayor of London to help citizens in that
position is wholly inadequate. When snow caused transport chaos earlier
this year, citizens were again badly informed. I am troubled that the
Bill does not include the Greater London authority as a principal
authority. Will my right hon. Friend consider what might be done to
ensure that the maverick Mayor of London, who enjoys making cameo
appearances in the media, does more to inform his citizens about the
services for which he is
responsible?
Ms
Winterton: My right hon. Friend makes a forceful point and
I am sure that we will continue to discuss issues concerning the Mayor
of
London. Opposition
Front Benchers often do not take heed of what their own councillors and
the Local Government Association are saying. To quote Sir Simon Milton
of the Local Government
Association—
Ms
Winterton: He is ex-Local Government Association. He
said: “Ensuring
that people participate in local democracy is healthy, legitimate and
must be encouraged. Greater participation brings more diversity and
encourages a much fuller local debate about issues that affect all our
lives. It is
councillors that know their local areas and the people who live there,
so it is good news that proposed legislation allows the necessary
flexibility that will allow them to respond to local circumstance and
residents’ wishes and concerns. Any guidance on this provided to
councils in the future must avoid prescription.”
That is the point that I
was making in response to the right hon. Gentleman. This Committee must
not be prescriptive about how councils should carry out that duty. We
need to ensure that we give helpful guidance, which we will draw up in
conjunction with relevant organisations, and that we consult properly.
It would be wrong for us to try to dictate where that should be carried
out.
Mr.
Lilley: Earlier, the right hon. Lady spelled out the basic
problem that she sees: many people cannot accurately say at which level
in local government the responsibility lies for different services. She
is therefore placing a duty on local authorities to educate them about
that. She also referred to measuring and monitoring their success in
overcoming that problem. Are we to take it that the impact will be
measured early in the performance assessments of councils? Would
councils be assessed on an improvement in the proportion of people who,
before and after the process, can accurately say where the
responsibility lies for delivering services? If they are not going to
do something like that, the whole thing is nonsense. If they are, it
will be a costly and unnecessary burden on local
government.
Ms
Winterton: The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it all
ways. He is well aware of how organisations that monitor local councils
carry out their duties. I suspect that it will be a range of methods to
look at whether local people feel that they are receiving information
adequately and know where to go to get information about
citizens’
responsibility.
Mr.
Lilley: Will expensive surveys be carried out in local
government
areas?
Ms
Winterton: It is important that we take advice from the
bodies that monitor local authorities on how they feel they can best
ensure that they are assessing how information is
disseminated.
Mr.
Lilley: On a point of order, Mr. Illsley. The
Minister said that she would take evidence from bodies representing
local authorities on how the measures will be monitored, but should not
this Committee take such evidence before we pass the Bill? Will there
be time and an opportunity to do
so?
The
Chairman: That is not really a matter for the Chair. A
Bill that comes to the Commons from the House of Lords does not usually
take evidence at this stage in proceedings. The right hon. Gentleman is
making a point of debate, and therefore one that the Committee can
pursue as it progresses through the
Bill.
Ms
Winterton: To return to clause
1—
Mr.
Goodman: I want to probe further the point made by my
right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden, because it was
not really answered. If local authorities are to be monitored on how
they carry out the duties set out in the Bill, will the Government
impose penalties if local authorities fail to carry them out? That is a
perfectly fair question, because it often happens in many other
contexts.
Ms
Winterton: The measurement of whether local authorities
are carrying out their duties will be done in the usual way. Financial
penalties are addressed in one of the amendments. This is about
bringing within the system this question that people ask: “How
is my local authority performing?” That will become part of the
assessment. It is then up to the local electorate to judge whether they
believe their local authority is doing well in delivering its duty.
That is when local people can make their judgment. That is not about
financial penalties, which one of the amendments proposes, but about
giving local people the ability to judge how their local authority has
fared in the inspection system so that they can make a decision in
elections. That is how the system operates in many other ways, and it
is absolutely fair that it should operate as such in this aspect as
well. I am sure that Opposition Members are not suggesting that we
simply replace the electorate’s ability to make that decision
with a tokenistic financial penalty. I hope that they understand
that. Amendment
37 suggests that we strengthen clause 1 by also asking local
authorities to provide local people with information about the duties
of their elected representatives. We certainly welcome the sentiment
behind that but suggest that it is unnecessary because clause 1(2)(b)
already covers that by asking local authorities to promote
understanding of what councillors do. I can assure the hon. Members for
Falmouth and Camborne and for North Cornwall that the intention is for
that to cover their duties. We shall make that clear in the statutory
guidance.
Julia
Goldsworthy: Surely that paragraph means that the
requirement is for the local authority to inform the public of what
members of the local authority do, not for the members to make the
public aware of what they do and what their local authority
does. 11.45
am
Ms
Winterton: Of course, it is about ensuring that the local
authority does that. I am sure that local councillors, who, after all,
run the local authorities, will want to ensure that the duty is
fulfilled. With regard to new clause 3, as I said, we want to make sure
that the usual process is followed in monitoring the duty. We do not
suggest that financial penalties are the right approach in this case. I
hope that I have been able to set out the thinking behind the
principles in clause
1.
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