Clause
23
Modification of
specification of apprenticeship standards for
England Amendment
made: 173, in
clause 23, page 11, line 9, leave
out ‘meets the requirements of’ and insert
‘complies with’.—(Mr.
Simon.) The amendment
amends the drafting of clause 23 to achieve consistency with clause
22(2).
Question
proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Hayes: Clause 23 allows the Secretary of State to direct
the chief executive of Skills Funding to
modify: “the
specification of apprenticeship standards for England...providing
that the specification...as so modified, meets the requirements of
section
25.” We
will be debating that issue in a few moments. It would be useful, for
the record, if the Minister could give some indication of the
circumstances in which the Secretary of State would give such a
direction. We have emphasised in our considerations so far that
ministerial involvement in such matters is best when it is minimal,
because the apprenticeship frameworks and standards and the
responsiveness of apprenticeships will be best defined by teachers,
employers and the agencies charged with that mission. In what
circumstances and why, when and how might such a direction be
given?
1.15
pm
Mr.
Simon: The clause does not authorise or enable the
Secretary of State to vary any of the conditions. Rather, it enables
the Secretary of State to direct the chief executive of Skills Funding
to modify the specification of apprenticeship standards for England and
to make an order bringing the modified specification into effect,
provided that the requirements in clause 25 are met. This clause is
important in that it gives us the flexibility to change the
specification of apprenticeship standards for England. Without such
flexibility, we would be unable to make changes, to respond to
employers’ needs, which might change over time, or to adjust the
bar in the specification so as to better reflect the rising quality of
the programme that we expect to deliver. We intend to consult on the
content of any modifications, even though that is not a requirement for
a
statute. Question
put and agreed
to. Clause
23, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
24Replacement
or modification of specification of apprenticeship standards:
recognised English
frameworks Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Hayes: I have no desire to delay the Committee unduly, but
these matters are important and it is useful to give the Minister the
opportunity to put some of the detail on
record. Clause
24 makes it clear that if a specification of apprenticeship standards
for England is brought into effect under clause 22, or an existing
specification is modified under clause 23, frameworks that have been
issued under clause 12 may not meet the requirements of the new or
modified specification. Subsection (1) provides that a recognised
English framework that fails to comply with a new or modified
specification will not automatically cease to be recognised, and
subsection (2) states that orders under clause 22, subject to the
negative resolution procedure, may provide for such a framework to
cease to have effect as a recognised English framework. My question is
simple, and I know that the Minister will have the answer to hand. What
is the timetable for that process? Clearly, if there has to be further
parliamentary authority under the negative resolution procedure, there
will be a time during which the framework still exists before it
ceases. What is that time frame, and what issues need to be considered
regarding frameworks that fall between the cracks and into that
gap?
Mr.
Simon: I will just talk through the provisions in this
clause. In developing the statutory framework for our apprenticeships
programme we have sought to ensure continuity of provision, even during
transitions. We recognise that over time the specification of
apprenticeship standards for England might need to change and the
clause provides that when such change occurs a recognised English
framework will not automatically cease to be recognised because it
fails to comply with the new or
modified specification. However, the clause includes provision for such
a framework to cease to have effect as a recognised English
framework. Those two provisions are essential to the smooth
working of the specification of apprenticeship standards for England
and of apprenticeship frameworks. Without them, a change to the SASE
could invalidate many existing frameworks, without there being
arrangements to replace
them. Equally,
there must be the sanction of a framework not being recognised when it
has ceased to meet the minimum criteria in the SASE. We intend to
ensure that employers and apprentices who start a framework do so in
the confidence that it will not change before they complete it, and to
ensure that sector skills councils are given sufficient time to make
the changes that are necessary to make their frameworks fully
compliant. The normal period for consultation will be three months plus
40 days in the House for the negative
procedure. Question
put and agreed to.
Clause
24 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause
25Contents
of specification of apprenticeship standards for
England Mr.
Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con): On a
point of order, Mrs. Humble. Does the clause stand part
debate take place after the vote on the
amendment?
Amendment
proposed: 47, in
clause 25, page 11, line 33, at
end insert— ‘(d) must
specify that these requirements include some element of supervised
training in the workplace.’.—(Mr.
Hayes.) Question
put, That the amendment be
made:—
The
Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes
9.
Division
No.
6] Question
accordingly negatived.
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Hayes: It is worth saying at this juncture that our
considerations are getting ever more exciting. The clause sets out what
must be included in the specification of apprenticeship standards for
England. Subsection (1) provides that the specification must specify
requirements in relation to the content of recognised English
frameworks
at level 2, known as apprenticeships, and level 3, known as advanced
apprenticeships and that it may specify requirements in relation to the
content of recognised English frameworks at other levels, for instance
level 4, known as higher apprenticeships. The effect of
subsection (2) is that the specification must require
English frameworks to specify requirements for the issue of
apprenticeship certificates, including levels of attainment required
for the award of a certificate. It must also require each framework to
identify the principal qualification in respect of that
framework. My
question raises a matter in order to allow the Minister to put his
response on the record. How does this differ from the existing
arrangements? I am not clear how these matters are dealt with in law at
the moment. Does this mark a significant change from existing practice?
Before I speak of excitement too much, I remind the Committee of what
Chesterton said about dull men and
excitement.
Mr.
Simon: The fundamental difference between these provisions
and the position in law at the moment is that the provisions are not in
law at the moment. It is fair to say that the specification of
apprenticeship standards for England will have much in common with the
existing apprenticeship blueprint. Obviously the SASE, as we all know
by now, is currently out for consultation and one would not want to
pre-empt that. But it is reasonable to say that there will be much
common ground between the two documents. The difference is that this
specification is being put on a statutory basis for the first time in
200 years: the current blueprint does not have statutory
force. Question
put and agreed
to. Clause
25 accordingly ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
26Specification
of apprenticeship standards for
Wales Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Hayes: I have a brief question on this. We spoke earlier
about consultation with Welsh Ministers and others associated with the
Principality. What representations has the Minister received from those
offices? What character and form do they
take?
Mr.
Simon: As I said, I personally have received no
representations from Welsh Ministers. The Department has received much
representation on various different parts of the Bill, which have been
adjusted to accommodate the needs of the Welsh Assembly Government. No
representations have been received on this clause. Ministers wrote to
the Welsh Assembly Government and other devolved Administrations prior
to the publication of the Bill and they made no attempt to amend the
clause.
Question
put and agreed
to. Clause
26 accordingly ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
27Modification
of specification of apprenticeship standards for
Wales Amendment
made: 174, in
clause 27, page 12, line 30, leave
out ‘meets the requirements of’ and insert
‘complies with’.—(Mr.
Simon.) This amendment
amends the drafting of clause 27 to achieve consistency with clause
26(5). Clause
27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Clauses
28 and 29 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
30Meaning
of “apprenticeship
agreement” Amendments
made: 175, in
clause 30, page 14, line 1, leave
out
‘apprenticeship’. 176,
in
clause 30, page 14, line 5, leave
out ‘relevant period preceding’ and insert
‘period of three
years ending
with’. This
technical drafting amendment reflects the fact that clause
30(4) is making provision about circumstances in which an agreement
will be treated as meeting one of the criteria for being an
‘apprenticeship
agreement’. 177,
in
clause 30, page 14, line 11, leave
out ‘another’ and insert
‘an’. This
amendment is consequent on amendment
175. 178,
in
clause 30, page 14, line 16, leave
out subsection (5). —(Mr.
Simon.) This
amendment is consequent on amendment
176. Question
proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Hayes: We have raced through the last few clauses, but it
seems unreasonable to deny the Minister the opportunity to contribute
further to our deliberations, given his outstanding performance when he
agreed with me previously and again today. I shall not offer any
plaudits—he said earlier that he was seeking
plaudits—unless they are fully
deserved.
1.30
pm The
clause applies to both England and Wales. The apprenticeship agreement
will be a contract entered into between the employer and the
apprentice. The Government expect it to set out both the on-the-job
training and the learning away from the work stations that will be
delivered. My first question is a reprise of a question that came up in
an earlier Committee sitting and is about the quantification of those
terms. Are we going to measure or stipulate the time spent on the job?
We have debated that briefly, but I would like it to be clear. The
logic of the clause and this part of the Bill seems to suggest that we
should. The contract will make clear what role an apprentice will be
qualified to hold on completion, and it will stipulate the supervision
that an apprentice will receive throughout the period of
apprenticeship.
That brings
me to my second question, which is about the quality as well as the
quantity of supervision. I paint a picture—some might call it a
romantic one—that
for me sums up, describes and illustrates what an apprenticeship is in
the eyes of most laymen, and what it should be in the eyes of those who
believe strongly in the apprenticeship system. It is a picture of a
willing learner, learning a craft or skill at the side—some
might argue at the feet—of an experienced craftsman. We
therefore need to know that that craftsman is experienced, qualified
and competent to transmit the knowledge—the
understanding—that we wish an apprentice to gain. We need to
know how long the apprentice will be mentored and what form that
mentoring will take. Subsection
(2) sets out the conditions that must be satisfied by an apprenticeship
agreement. The agreement must be in a form that is to be prescribed by
the Secretary of State. Subsection (3) gives the Secretary of State
power
“to specify
provisions that
must”— or
must
not— “be
included in an apprenticeship
agreement”, which
is precisely why I am asking these questions. Subsection (4) enables
the apprentice to enter into successive apprenticeship agreements
relating to the same framework, even where that has ceased to be a
recognised English framework.
Given that
the clause stipulates those powers, it is important that we know how
they will be realised and what they will lead to in terms of quality
and quantity, and the contractual expectations of an apprentice and of
those who provide training for an apprentice. I hope that the Minister
will be able to elucidate, and by so doing, illuminate these
matters.
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