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Serious allegations have been made that Britain may have been complicit in torture. Let us be absolutely clear about Binyam Mohamed. This is someone who claimed he was going to Chechnya to help civilians, but
in fact ended up in Afghanistan. Nevertheless his allegations have to be dealt with. It is right for the Attorney-General to see whether a crime has been committed, but is it not also important that the Prime Minister is satisfied that Britain has throughout acted with moral authorityover and above the question of whether a crime has been committed? Will the Prime Minister tell us what he has done to satisfy himself of the true facts in this case?
The Prime Minister: Let me say right at the outset that this Government unreservedly condemn the use of torture. Under no circumstances will we participate in, encourage or condone the use of torture for any purpose. Where allegations are made about torture, I have instructed that they must be properly examinedincluding, if necessary, by the courts. The Attorney-General is looking at the very specific allegations in this case. If there is evidence, it will be referred to the police, who will conduct a criminal inquiry. At the moment, the matter is with the Attorney-General, who is looking at all the evidence. As I say, I have instructed that whenever allegations are made, they are properly investigated.
Mr. Cameron: I grateful for the Prime Ministers assurances and we agree completely with what he says about torture being unacceptable. We all want to eradicate the potential stain on Britains reputation, but the question is whether an investigation by the Attorney-General into criminal conduct is enough. Surely we need to look at what procedures and processes are in place to ensure that Britain cannot knowingly, or unknowingly, be implicated in torture. Is that not why we need a brief, judge-led inquiry into what happened and what lessons need to be learned?
The Prime Minister: I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman says and it is absolutely right that we be vigilant at all times because the freedoms and liberties of this country are best served by making absolutely sure that we unreservedly condemn and do not allow the use of torture. The Intelligence and Security Committee has investigated some aspects of these matters and reports were done in 2005 and 2007. The Committee will continue to look at these matters because that is the statutory role given to it. At the same time, the Attorney-General will look at all the details, and I have made it clear that there is a next stage. If any evidence is found that should lead to a police investigation, it will be referred to the police, and if they decide to proceed a criminal investigation will be carried out. This is the best way to deal with these specific instancesthe Intelligence and Security Committee looks at the general cases.
But it is not clear that the Attorney-Generals inquiry will answer the question that the Prime Minister himself rightly poses, which is whether we have acted properly at all times during these procedures. The Attorney-General will look at the one case, rather than at the procedures in all cases. The Attorney-General is, quite rightly, looking at whether a crime has been committed, but is not really looking at our moral authority and whether it has been maintained. Does not the Prime Minister see that an inquiry is likely to become necessary: either the Attorney-General will find that a crime has been committed, in which case there will be a clamour for an inquiry to answer how on earth it was
allowed to happen; or, on the other hand, if the Attorney-General decides not to go ahead with a prosecution, we will still not really have the answers to what happened in this important case? On either ground, would it not be better to order that judge-led inquiry, instead of having it dragged out in the weeks ahead?
The Prime Minister: The Intelligence and Security Committee has inquired, and continues to inquire, into these matters, and we have had a debate about the full status of the ISC for the future. It looked at the issue of rendition in great detail in its previous inquiry. The Home Secretary, in her role as an adviser to Government, referred the question of possible criminal wrongdoing to the Attorney-General. She is consulting others, as is necessary, about what needs to be done. It is obviously for her to decide how she is likely to proceed. The court that heard Binyam Mohameds judicial review case has made it clear that it thinks this is the right way to proceed. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will allow the inquiries taking place to proceed. On the general issues he raised, Britain, because of our defence of freedom and liberty, of course wishes to be seen to be doing everything in our power to deal with questions that arise about the use of torture or rendition. I believe that, at this stage, the best way to proceed is with the Intelligence and Security Committee, but let us hear the report of the Attorney-General.
Mr. Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): The Prime Minister made some welcome observations about the terrible tragedies in Northern Ireland. Does he agree that what is especially encouraging is the fact that the leaders of republicanism have spoken out so clearly and unequivocally in condemning those terrible criminal atrocities, and have been united in doing so? Even a few years ago, it would have been unthinkable that the Deputy First Minister, with all his history, would stand alongside the First Minister and the Chief Constable and say that we would not tolerate this criminality, while still retaining his republican objectives. That gives us encouragement, or should, in the current circumstances.
The Prime Minister: I spoke to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on Sunday, and met them both on Monday. Both revealed their determination to make it absolutely clear that violence cannot be tolerated, that terrorists must be rooted out, and that the community should co-operate with the police in doing that. They condemned absolutely the killings of a police officer and the killings of Army officers who were, sadly, on their way to Afghanistan, and who would have left that night but for the terrible incident.
I say to my right hon. Friend that out of this tragedy something is emerging which shows that the people of Northern Ireland, as well as the politicians, want the political process to be both maintained and strengthened. I think that that gives reassurance and encouragement even in this most difficult of times.
Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD):
Following the brutal murders of Sappers Quinsey and Azimkar and Constable Carroll, and the serious injuries suffered by four others, may I say on behalf of all Liberal Democrat Members that our hearts go out to the families of the victims, though they harden against their murderers? Their violence must not and will not divide the people
of Northern Ireland; instead, it will strengthen their resolve to live their lives in peace. That is the unwavering message of the dignified demonstrations taking place in Northern Ireland today.
May I also extend my personal welcome to the leader of the Conservative party on his return to Parliament, and say on behalf of all on these Benches that we sincerely hope that he and his family will be given the time and the space to cope with the terrible loss they have suffered?
I am sure the Prime Minister will agree that todays announcement from President Sarkozy that he will reverse General de Gaulles legacy and rejoin NATO is hugely significant, but does he also agree that it offers an enormous opportunity for Britain, along with France, to lead European defence co-operation, which has been held back by tensions surrounding the Atlantic alliance?
The Prime Minister: I do welcome Frances announcement that at the NATO summit on 3 and 4 April, with the President of America and other people present, it will announce its return to the inner core of NATO. I believe that that is good for the defence of the world. I also believe that there are opportunities for co-operation not just between France and Britain, but between the countries of the rest of the world, in relation to nuclear disarmament.
We are at a critical point in the nuclear proliferation discussions, and we are at a particularly difficult point in relation to Iran. We have made it clear to Iran that it cannot join the international community unless it renounces nuclear weapons. However, I believe that a wider deal on nuclear arms is possible in the next few years, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that France, America and other members of NATO are keen to see that happen.
Mr. Clegg: I welcome the Prime Ministers response, but my main concern is that he may still miss the full opportunity available to him. If he could commit Britain to working fully with France and others on European defencewhich, frankly, we have not done before nowhe would be in a stronger position to ask them to commit more money and troops to Afghanistan. Does he recognise that there is a good bargain to be had, which would be of enormous help to our overstretched service men and women for many years to come?
The Prime Minister: European defence co-operation is important. I think the hon. Gentleman will know that it exists in many areas, and particularly between Britain and France. I have talked directly to President Sarkozy about what more we can do together in Afghanistan and other places. We must also remember that we are talking about the British armed forces: the British Army, the British Navy and the British Air Force. We will defend our right to make our own decisions as well.
Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): The case for the partial sale of Royal Mail is crumbling and opposition is growing across the country and in this House. Is it not about time that the Government dropped that unwanted and unnecessary measure from its postal services reforms?
The Prime Minister:
I know that my hon. Friend has never been a supporter of the course of action that the
Government have proposed, but I ask the House to look at this issue. The Royal Mail has a pension fund deficit that is going to approach £8 billion. It has investment needs that it needs to meet for the future. It also wants to continue, as we want it to continue, the universal service obligation. It makes sense to try to find additional investors in the Royal Mail to enable us to meet our commitment to the pensioners, to maintain the universal service obligation, to keep the post office network, with the additional investment that we are making in it, and of course to give maximum support to the postal workers in our country, whom I support as well.
Q2.  Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Savers have been hammered by falling interest rates, clobbered by falling share prices and shortly will suffer from the inflationary consequences of what we describe as quantitative easing. Does the Prime Minister not believeI say this sincerelythat he owes it to savers, many of whom are pensioners, to have a full debate in Government time in this House on Government economic policies, so that he can honour his commitment to this country at the beginning of his premiership to put the House of Commons at the centre of government?
The Prime Minister: We are happy to debate the economy at any time in this House and to be able to show people that we are taking the right decisions to get us through this downturn. I appreciate the difficulties that savers face at this time. The greatest danger to savers has always been high inflation. We have kept inflation low in this country for the past 11 years, and we are looking at what we can do to help savers at this point. [ Interruption. ] If Conservative Members want to shout about that, perhaps they should look at their policies for cutting public spending. No country in the world is choosing to cut public spending at a time when people are in need of the help that Government can provide.
Q3.  Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The north-east is aware of the importance of regional airports. Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the campaign being run by the Northern Echo, Keep the Region Flying, which promotes the economic benefits of airports such as Durham Tees Valley in my constituency? Is he aware that the deputy chair of the Conservative party has recently talked down the future of Durham Tees Valley airport, threatening future prosperity and jobs?
The Prime Minister: Regional airports are incredibly important to the economies of all parts of this country. I recognise the importance of domestic air services to London airports for the regional economy of the north-east and for every other regional economy in the country. I congratulate my hon. Friend and the Northern Echo on their campaign. I understand that the aviation Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Jim Fitzpatrick), has agreed to meet him to discuss these issues. In the longer term, increasing capacity at Heathrow should help to maintain and grow domestic air services.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): May I, first, thank the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and all other Members who have paid tribute to those who have died in the tragedies that have taken place in Northern Ireland over the past few days? Constable Carroll lived in my constituency in the town of Banbridge. He had served some 20 years, I believe, in the security forces and was due to take early retirement next year. I had the sad task of visiting his home yesterday. While his wife and family are heartbroken, they are resolute that Northern Ireland must move forward.
Will the Prime Minister agree with me that the vermin, for that is what they are, who took out Constable Carroll will be brought to book for what they did; that it is important that, whatever resources the Chief Constable needs, all parties in the Northern Ireland Executive support that; and that these individuals will never be allowed to put Northern Ireland back into the 35 years of hell on earth that we have come through?
The Prime Minister: I know that the whole House will want to pass, through the hon. Gentleman, our condolences to the family of Constable Stephen Carroll. He was part of a tactical support group that was supporting a mobile patrol unit responding to reports of a broken window in a house. On arrival at the scene, he was hit by a number of shots that killed him. He was the first Police Service of Northern Ireland officer to be killed by terrorists. I hope that the hon. Gentleman can pass on our condolences to his family. I can assure him that I have talked to the Chief Constable twice and have met him subsequently. I have agreed with him, as has the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, that he will have the resources that are necessary. We need the co-operation of all communities to bring people to justice. Two arrests have been made, and it is for the police, and then the prosecuting authorities, to make further decisions on that. I must tell the hon. Gentleman that there is a determination to do everything in our power to bring what are criminal murderers to justice and to show that they have no place in the political process of Northern Ireland.
Q4.  Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Why do the Government think that banks are best run in private hands? Why do they favour a return to private investment banks rather than a state investment bank? If banks are too big to go bankrupt, surely it is in the public interest that they are run properly, rather than have public ownership of their private bad debt.
The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend has not come to these views just in the last few months, but has held them for some time. For the first time, we have insisted that banks give us a quantitative figure for the amount of lending that they will do. This is essentially a lending agreement between Government and the banks that requires the banks to do a particular amount of lending. The Royal Bank of Scotland, in which we have more than 80 per cent. of shares, has agreed to £25 billion of extra lending this year and next year; Halifax Bank of Scotland Lloyds TSB has agreed to £14 billion of extra lending on top of its previous commitment; Northern Rock has agreed to £9 billion. This is an example of how, having learned the lessons of the last few years, we are determined to insist that the banks do their duty by the public.
Q5.  Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): Forty-five council staff in Chesterfield are about to lose their jobs to pay for the Governments mistakes in introducing the national concessionary bus fare scheme last year. Thirty councils have been badly underfunded, Chesterfield by £1.5 million. Yet some councils have been given too much; next-door Bolsover has been given £400,000 more than it needs. There is still time for the Prime Minister to intervene with the Department for Transport to sort out the mess and save those 45 jobs. Will he do so?
The Prime Minister: I hope that the whole House will agree that concessionary travelthe new free bus pass for the over-60s that allows them to travel around the countryis a good invention and a good thing to do. I hope that all hon. Members will agree that we have given support to local authorities. I know that the hon. Gentleman has met the Minister concerned, and with Chesterfield borough council and Derbyshire county council. The issue is how much money they receive for the operation of the scheme. Chesterfield is receiving an extra £416,000 as a borough council, in addition to existing formula grant funding for the pre-existing other elements of the statutory bus concession. We will look at any points that he raises, but the important thing is that the concessionary bus scheme for the over-60s is working and will continue to work.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is the Prime Minister aware that, in Bolsover, they vote Labour and have not put in a tinpot Liberal council like Chesterfield? Is he also aware that this so-called Liberal council, which has been there for a few years, lost control of its finances generally long before the bus scheme was introduced? So whatever he doesI am sure he will look at the figuresthe Prime Minister must make sure that Bolsover retains the money that it properly gets from this Labour Government and make sure that we are able to carry out the bus travel scheme as in the past.
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely rightand he has also held these views for many years. The free bus pass for pensioners, and what we have done in raising the winter allowance and the basic pension, as well as the pension credit and free eye tests for pensioners, show that we are the party and the Government who are trying to serve the needs of the elderly of this country, and we will continue to do so.
The Prime Minister: It may not matter to Conservative Members, but people have at least £20 more in their pockets every month; people have more money in their pockets, which they can decide to spend or save. The European Union agreed yesterday that in certain other cases VAT would fall. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies says, the effects of this are giving people more discretionary spending power, and that is the right thing to do. Only the Conservative party could scorn an attempt to give £20 a month to every family in this country.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP):
I thank the Prime Minister for his meaningful and measured presence in Northern Ireland on Monday morning. I previously recorded condolences in this House to the two soldiers who were murdered in Antrim, and I visited Constable
Carrolls family last night. Does the Prime Minister agree that those young people whom the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA are seeking to recruit need to know that the lesson of Monday night is that the real patriots serving the peace of the new Ireland were Constable Carroll and his colleagues, who went to answer the call of a woman in stress, not those who brutally murdered him? While the Prime Minister has affirmed the determination of all parties to make sure these groups are not able to set us back politically, will he also assure us of his determination that they will not succeed in their other immediate aim of setting back the policing environment?
The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. He was at the meeting of all the political party leaders on Monday that was convened in Belfast. All leaders attended: all leaders said they were determined to root out violence; all leaders said that it was important to help the police in their task; and there was a unity of purpose, which is now reflected, I believe, in the peaceful and dignified marches in Northern Ireland today, to show that the whole of the public want to see an end to violence. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that those who gave their lives are true patriots, and we will never forget them; they are in our memories for ever.
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