Westminster Hall
Tuesday 10 March 2009
[Mr. Greg Pope in the Chair]
GB Football Team (Olympics)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Steve McCabe.)
9.30 am
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Pope, for this short debate, which I hope you will find interesting. I want to take you back to 27 May 1972. It may not have been a special day for you, but it was important and significant to the young Master Wishart. It was the day of my Hampden baptism. I remember going along with my dad and some boyhood friends to watch Scotland play England in the old home internationals. That day filled my young boyhood senses. About 100,000 people were crammed into that tight space in Mount Florida, and the Hampden roar reverberated right around the south side of Glasgow. It was a fantastic day—a day that I would want for any of my countrymen and women. It was only slightly marred by the fact that Alan Ball came from absolutely nowhere and scored the only goal and winner for England, but that is what it is like to be a Scotland fan. One is on an incredible emotional rollercoaster, but I would not surrender my ticket for that rollercoaster for anything whatsoever.
I mention all that because the Scotland football team unites our community in a way that nothing else does. We are totally passionate about it. It is a great ambassador for our nation. When we started to re-emerge as a nation in the past 10 or 20 years, it was our international football team that, practically alone, gave us an international profile. What would international football be without the tartan army, those tartan-clad, Jimmy-wigged ambassadors and troubadours who invade foreign soil and turf with such good humour and good nature?
I mention all that because I feel privileged to stand here today to do and say something to try to defend and protect our national football team. That should be the job of all of us as legislators. If we were to take a decision, even inadvertently, that threatened the continuation of our national football team—even if there is only a one in 100 or even one in 1,000 chance—we should be dismissed out of hand. Our position should not be considered; we should be shredded, told to go away.
We should do absolutely nothing that would ever threaten our independent footballing status. We should never give a hint of a precedent that might be used against us in the future. We should give no reason or excuse to those who would question our independent footballing status, and no succour to those who would seek to end the very generous arrangements that we have in the United Kingdom. Our job is to protect our status, and that is what we should be doing.
The Government’s proposals for a Team GB put that all aside. They are establishing the precedent, and giving a reason and excuses to those who would question our separate arrangements. I appeal to them to stop and not do anymore.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe): First, the proposals are not Government proposals. Secondly, does the hon. Gentleman think that football should be an Olympic sport?
Pete Wishart: I shall come to that in the course of my speech. The short answer is that I have no problem at all with football being an Olympic sport, but it will not be one of the most glamorous parts of the Olympics. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that the best way to settle international football is through the traditional method: the World cup. That is where we should be determining international football champions, but I have no issue at all with football being a feature of the Olympics.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and giving us an opportunity to discuss sport, football and politics all together. He makes a strong point about the identity of the home nations, but Olympic sports are international championships—that applies to every sport. I do not know of an athlete in Wales who would not be proud to run for Wales in the Commonwealth games, and to wear the UK vest and run for Great Britain and, hopefully, win gold.
Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. There is not much in it with which I disagree. Yes, have a Team GB for the Olympics, if that is what he wants, but the key issue is whether it is worth it to question the future standing of international football teams, because that is what could happen. I can imagine a future FIFA board saying, “For the 2012 Olympics, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England were able to set aside their national football sides. Why can they not therefore do it for the World cup and the European championship?” Is it worth it? I say to him, not at all.
John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Following on from the last intervention, would he agree that the main problem is that we would have the one Olympic team? In an ideal situation, we would have separate Olympic teams, and this would not be an issue. It is the anachronism of a united Olympic team that is causing the knock-on effect.
Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point and is absolutely right. There is an elegant solution: if the Government are determined to have football in the Olympics, why not have all the international home teams compete in the Olympics? I see nothing wrong with that. I shall come to that important point later in my contribution, but I am grateful to him for raising it.
If what has been suggested is not a Government proposal, it certainly is a Government-supported proposal. I am sure that the Minister will speak about that later.
Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): It might indeed be a Government-supported proposal, but it certainly does not seem to be supported by Scottish Labour MPs, whose absence this morning is glaring.
Pete Wishart: I just noticed that, and am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing it out. There do not seem to be any other Scottish Members here, which is staggering. I am sure that Hansard will want to ensure that that is noted. They show a lack of interest by not even bothering to get out of bed to come here and discuss the thing that we in Scotland are most passionate about: our international football team. I shall leave that aside, but, looking at the threadbare Labour Benches—again, I shall not bother to comment.
For the first time in 50 years, we are setting aside all our home nations to come together for a team GB. Is it worth it? We talk about participating in the Olympics. I have heard all the figures, and I agree that it would be a great opportunity for all those under-23 young men to have an Olympic experience, but it is not how we settle international football competitions.
Let us look at how the massive sporting events are arranged. Every four years, there is the Olympics, and every four years there is the World cup. There are always two years between them, because they are the two biggest sporting occasions in the world. If we are having football in the Olympics, and the World cup, why do we not have international athletics as a warm-up to the World cup? If we are to go down this road, should we consider that?
The best way to settle the football world championship is the old-fashioned, tried and tested method of the World cup. That is where it is done. We are threatening and questioning our independent status as a footballing nation for a non-event in the Olympics, contested by an under-23 side. It will not even be a best side; the top stars will not be there. It will be a meaningless competition, and I say to the Minister that it will not be worth while.
Perhaps I could suggest a more sinister reason why the proposals have emerged in the past couple of years. I do not think that they are as much about football as about a particular agenda that our Prime Minister has: his Britishness agenda. He has form on the issue. My hon. Friends will remember clearly that when he was asked what his favourite sporting moment was, to try to ingratiate himself with English football fans and promote his Britishness agenda, he said that it was the day that Gazza scored against Scotland in the 1996 European championship. That goal broke Scottish football supporters’ hearts, but it was our Prime Minister’s favourite sporting moment.
We should not sacrifice our independent football team to make our Prime Minister feel that little bit more British. I would prefer that he continue to stick his Union Jacks in his Kirkcaldy home rather than threaten and get involved with the national football team. That may be the real reason behind the proposals, but we will give him no succour.
Let us look at the two teams. What a formidable squad the “no to Team GB” line-up is. It is pitted against the “for Team GB” squad. The “no to Team GB” squad has a strong 4-3-3 formation, led by the Football Associations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It has a formidable midfield, comprising the tartan army, all the pundits and commentators in Scotland and former Scotland managers and players. And, let us not forget its defence: the overwhelming majority of Scotland fans. Who is in the “for team GB” squad in Scotland? It has a pretty threadbare 2-1-1 formation, and already many of its members have been red-carded.
It is led by the Prime Minister, but we all know that he is much more likely to score an own goal than a goal in the opposition’s net. The midfield consists of the Secretary of State for Scotland, running around like a headless chicken—not the midfield dynamo that you would expect, Mr. Pope. And, in defence—well, there is nobody in defence. I thought that they would at least have been present to say something about the issue, but the defence has gone home. If you were a football fan, Mr. Pope, and passionate about the game in Scotland, whose side would you be on? Would you be on the side of the Prime Minister, or of everybody else, who oppose the proposition? The answer is pretty straightforward, Mr. Pope. I see you laughing, so I think that you know the answer, too.
What do the proponents of this Team GB think about the opposition? Almost arrogantly, they dismiss it; they could not care less. Every single football association other than the English Football Association has rejected the proposal, but still the proponents pursue, support and propose it. Sebastian Coe allegedly used some very colourful language to tell us where we should all go—language that if I were to repeat in this House, Mr. Pope, you would have the Doorkeeper frogmarch me from the estate, and quite rightly. Sebastian Coe ever so politely told all the opposition where they might go. Well, I have a message for him from the fans of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland: “We would like to reciprocate your kind offer, and go away and do absolutely nothing that threatens our independent status.”
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): In fully supporting the hon. Gentleman’s contentions throughout, I must say that I cannot understand the reasoning behind the call for a GB team. All the home nations’ teams are strong sides that can hold their own in international competition, and that is the way it should be. Indeed, I am sure that he will join me in congratulating the Wales rugby sevens side on becoming world champions last weekend.
Pete Wishart: Absolutely. May I offer those congratulations wholeheartedly to the hon. Gentleman and to the Welsh national side? It was an incredible achievement and, of course, I share his bewilderment at the proposal’s pursuit. It is not just pursued, however; it is arrogantly pursued.
Mr. Sutcliffe: Was it a mistake, then, to have a GB football team at the Paralympics in Beijing last year?
Pete Wishart: The Paralympics team does not threaten the home nations’ independent status. FIFA and UEFA are not looking at that; they are looking carefully at the decisions that we make about this Team GB today. I have no problem with the Paralympics team; I have a problem with any proposition that will not allow my son or my grandchildren to turn up to Scotland football games. Even if there is just a one in 100, or a one in 1,000 chance of it happening, even inadvertently, we should get rid of the proposal—take it away, not discuss it, just close it down. I wish the Minister would join me in that view. I know that he is a football fan who likes his game and his international football. His football team probably is not threatened by the proposal, but ours is, so I hope that he will take very seriously the fact that everybody in Scotland is against him on this proposal.
Mr. MacNeil: My hon. Friend makes the point that the Minister’s football team is not threatened by the proposal, but, if a European Union football team were suggested, the reaction from the English FA and, perhaps, from the Minister would be far different.
Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend is right: there would be no support for that proposal whatever. We acknowledge that the United Kingdom has generous historical arrangements: all the home nations are members of the FIFA board. In the past five to 10 years, however, a number of new nations have emerged, and many of them look enviously at what we have. Devolved Parliaments throughout the world would like a shot at competing in international competitions, as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do, but we should give them nothing—no reason and no excuse to bring up the issue and discuss it.
At the heart of the matter when it comes to such proposals are the assurances that Ministers, Sebastian Coe and others secure and receive when they raise the issue with FIFA. FIFA tells everybody that the proposal will not affect the independent status of the home nation teams—assurances that are not worth the paper that they are not even written on. They are totally and utterly meaningless, and we have the pathetic sight of the Secretary of State for Scotland, wandering back from yet another meeting with FIFA declaring, “Peace in our time,” because we have had yet another assurance, such is his negotiating skill and the clever and complicated way in which he puts his argument. He got the same answer as everybody else: “Yes, of course it won’t affect the international standing of your home nations.” But, even if we accept that that is the FIFA board’s view, and there are big questions about that after Sepp Blatter’s interesting remarks last week, the view is not binding for future FIFA boards; they could quite easily rip it up and have nothing whatever to do with it. So, let us not hear anything about those assurances.
The FIFA board’s view was interesting, too. Last Saturday, Sepp Blatter most certainly let the cat out of the sports bag when he revealed his real reasoning. David Peat, recalling what Sepp Blatter told him in a private meeting, said:
“Mr Blatter told us at an informal function that, if we agreed to be part of Team GB, our position would be in jeopardy. My immediate reaction was one of surprise. I glanced over at the English table and their two guys, Lord Triesman and Sir David Richards, just looked at each other.”
I bet they did, with their hands at their heads, because that is the real position of the FIFA president. At an informal function, when speaking his mind on the issue, he is quite happy to tell us his real view on the matter. Please, I ask the Government, do not insult our intelligence with these meaningless assurances. They are not worth anything. I am sure that, when the Minister responds, he will bear that in mind. The board could not care less.
I see that the Minister has a paper in his hand, and I have a paper in my hand, too. It is a very interesting one, from David Will, the honorary vice-president of FIFA, who should know a little bit about international football and politics. He says:
“People seem to have forgotten that at almost all the FIFA Congresses throughout the 1980s, delegates, mostly from Africa supported by the Caribbean, raised objections to the existence of the four associations.”
There is an ongoing discussion in FIFA and in UEFA, so their assurances are totally and utterly meaningless.
A few people have talked about Members getting politically involved in FIFA issues, and I take very seriously the Scottish Football Association’s concerns about that. I leave it to the SFA, however, to raise those issues with FIFA. Our job, as Members, is to raise the issues with Ministers who strongly support the proposal. As long as they propose it, my job, as a Member who represents thousands of passionate Scotland fans, will be to oppose the Government and their support for this national football team. That is what we are here to do, and I make absolutely no excuse for doing so.
There are solutions, as my hon. Friends have said, however. If we want football teams to participate in the Olympics, what is wrong with all the home teams participating? Absolutely nothing. That is what happened when the Olympics last came to London, in 1908. All four home international sides competed, so, surely, that is how we should proceed. If being a part of the Olympics is such a great experience for young men, we should multiply it fourfold and give that wonderful chance to even more of our young people. The Minister should consider that solution. For goodness’ sake, we are hosting the Olympics; it is not as if we are without influence when it comes to making such decisions. Surely, he could put it to the powers that be.
We could kill this proposal today. We could end it today. All is needed is for the Minister to say, “We no longer support this. We take on board the clear opposition. We will not arrogantly try to pursue it against the wishes of all the other football associations.” He could easily do that today. If all Scottish Members of Parliament came together on an early-day motion, that would also kill the proposal. We could unite on that. I would even be prepared to sign an early-day motion put together by Government Members who are not in the Chamber, as long as it was trying to achieve that objective. That is something that we could do.
Everybody is against this proposal. There is no support for it in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If there is support for it, perhaps the Minister would say who is for it other than the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland and a few Labour MPs. Even Labour in Scotland is beginning to crack. There are Members of the Scottish Parliament who get it, understand the issues, see the threat and are now against it. Support for this proposal lies only in this House. It exists nowhere else. There is no serious, credible pundit, commentator or former official in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland who believes that this proposal is a good thing.
Our job is to ensure that ordinary football fans are given a voice in the House. I do not know how many of my constituents I have spoken to about this issue who are concerned about all this. We have to give no precedent whatever, no reason and no excuse. Our job is to defend our national football side. I make no excuse for trying to do that today.
9.51 am
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): As I said, it is a great pleasure to congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing this debate, which gives us the opportunity to talk about football and the Olympics—two things that dominated my life when I was young, and still do.
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