Examination of Witnesses (Questions 680
- 699)
TUESDAY 17 JUNE 2008
PROFESSOR SIR
AL AYNSLEY-GREEN
Q680 Tom Brake: When you describe
our system as being overly punitive, you highlighted the fact
there are, in your view, too many children in prison, is it also
about the length of sentences? In what way is our system overly
punitive?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: We are anxious
to explore the journey of young people through being in conflict
with the law and each of the milestones to try to unpick what
is going on. We are trying to get children themselves to tell
us what happens at each stage of the process. I have also been
to Sweden and to Canada to see how they are tackling youth justice.
In Canada the Youth Justice Act some six years ago has transformed
the whole incarceration of children. I believe there has been
a substantial reduction in the incarceration rate by much more
flexibility at first point of contact with the police, much more
emphasis on proper hard hitting community services, much more
information and evidence of restorative justice. In this country
very good things are being done in Essex and in Thames Valley
with restorative justice where the perpetrator is confronted with
the victim and that seems to be extremely effective. I am sorry
to say this does not seem to be a well received mechanism throughout
the whole country. I would like to explore the efficacy of these
alternatives to immediately locking up children in prison.
Q681 Mr Winnick: Do you think that
many people would be rather surprised that you exercising your
right, which no-one wants to take away from you, of complaining
in your official capacity to the United Nations that Britain has
what you describe as a punitive approach to youth crime? Would
you be surprised at the surprise that people undoubtedly would
feel about that?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: First of
all, it is not just my view. This is the concerted view of all
four of the UK Commissioners in our different jurisdictions. I
am not surprised people would be surprised because I do not think
they know what is going on.
Q682 Mr Winnick: The impression would
be given that we are engaging in flogging and other beatings of
various kinds which have long been banned fortunately in this
country but which apply sadly in many parts of the world. The
impression that would be given is we are engaging in those sorts
of practices.
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: From some
of the media coverage there are people who would like to have
flogging and naming and shaming brought back into our civilised
society. I think the low age of criminal responsibility is an
interesting point: it is eight in Scotland and ten in England,
Wales and Northern Ireland. You can be criminally charged at ten
before you are able to own a dog. In other European countries
the age of criminal responsibility is much higher and they have
a welfare approach to the management of young offenders rather
than a punitive approach.
Q683 Mr Winnick: Is it possible that
the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations, perhaps Zimbabwe
or Uganda or some other countries, would be sending a Commission
to the United Kingdom to see how badly we are treating young people?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: I would
hold on to the objectivity of the UN Committee. I appeared before
them with my three colleagues last week in Geneva and you are
right, members do come from a wide range of different countries.
Q684 Mr Winnick: They are coming
to Britain to investigate. Is that what you would like the United
Nations to do?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: The rappateurs
will be coming to this country in the next few weeks before our
government appears in the session in September. I also remind
you that we are the worst, according to the UNICEF report, of
the 21 richest countries in the world in the context of our outcomes
and the well being of our children. There is a substantial body
of evidence, which some people may deny and others may want to
debate, which does show that this country is not delivering as
it could do, as one of the richest countries in the world, for
the benefit of our children and young people. I am not surprised
to hear you say that the population may be surprised about these
things because it has not been exposed to them against the endless
noise of the problems of children.
Q685 Bob Russell: You mentioned earlier
the youngsters saying there is nothing to do. Do your deliberations
include working with the recognised youth movements in this country?
Have they told you that if they had some of the resources that
currently go into locking up young people they could actually
deliver outcomes to prevent young people going inside?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: Yes, that
is a message I hear repeatedly across the country. I believe the
youth service until how has been under-valued, under-appreciated
and under-resourced. Remember there are something like 50,000
young girls who want to be Girl Guides in this country who cannot
and why, because adults are no longer volunteering to work with
them in their localities.
Q686 Chairman: Why is that?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: For example,
the Criminal Records Bureau checking. I do not deny the importance
of this but it is perceived to be a real obstacle for adults working
with children. They often in their localities flounder trying
to find their way through the morass of getting that to enable
them to work with children.
Q687 Bob Russell: The cost of the
meeting halls?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: Exactly,
and the cost of running these services. I welcome the government's
focus on youth, on play, et cetera, but we cannot change things
until adults themselves are prepared to listen to and to work
with children.
Chairman: I am not sure whether Mrs Moran
was a Girl Guide but she has the next question.
Q688 Margaret Moran: I was an impeccably
PC Woodcraft Folk person. Have you ever been out at night with
the police looking at what young people are getting up to?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: I have been
on the streets with young people. I mentioned my experience in
Doncaster. I am working with Southwark in arranging that.
Q689 Margaret Moran: You have not
been out, like many of us have, with the police at night seeing
what young people are getting up to?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: No, but
it is my intention to do just that.
Q690 Margaret Moran: Would that not
lead to a view that your approach to all of this is rather academic
rather than the practical experience that we know our constituents
and we see every day? What would your response be to that?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: That is
a charge that you might lay against us. I would defend it by saying
we have been in existence for three years. We are trying to set
up our primary function which is to listen to what children have
to say and then to complement that by what other organisations
have to say. That is why I attended the Association of Small Convenience
Stores to hear their views about the mosquito. I intend to do
just what you are saying, to go out with the police and work with
them.
Q691 Margaret Moran: Three years
on it seems to me a little surprising you have not got there yet.
Are we not talking about a vicious circle where many young people
are actually victims of crime by other young people? Does your
approach not portray a greater emphasis or a greater compassion
to those who are actually perpetrating the crimes and ignoring
the plight of victims who are also young people who deserve our
support?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: Exactly,
and I am glad you raised the issue about victims. One has to have
immense support for victims and in some places through restorative
justice, which I mentioned just now, victims are having a chance
to confront their perpetrators which I welcome very much. I would
make the point that many young people themselves are victims of
crime and what is going on and hearing their views is also important.
Very often they are not seen and not treated as victims. Remember
that many people go on to offending behaviour after being the
victims of other difficulties so it is a very complex area indeed
and I have no one quick fix solution to it.
Q692 Margaret Moran: My point was
very much that young people are victims. What work have you done,
because the balance does not appear to be right, at least in the
media, between your emphasis on sympathising with the perpetrator
as opposed to the young person that is the victim. What practical
steps have you done working with those young victims to prevent
them perhaps going on to be perpetrators because of the fear they
have experienced?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: At this
moment in time, with our major theme for guns and knives, we are
working with what we call buddy groups across the country. We
are listening to children's views and we are looking at it from
several aspects. First of all, why they are so afraid in society,
what their experiences are having been victims, and what they
feel are the answers to our solutions. We are trying very hard
to get into this debate.
Q693 Margaret Moran: You do not have
an answer.
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: I do not
have an answer today but we will have in the course of the next
few months.
Q694 Mr Streeter: Where does parenting
fit into all this because you have not mentioned that at all yet?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: I can tell
you that children and young people tell us that parents are the
most important people in their lives and with their families.
It is not a surprise but it needs to be reinforced repeatedly
that this is what children feel about the importance of their
parents. They want family stability. They are desperately concerned
about the break-up of families and the consequences they see affecting
their peers in classes. Parenting is crucially important and as
a nation, I would argue, we have not given parenting the importance
and the emphasis it deserves. I would argue too that parenting
should start before you become parents. I have been to Canada
to see the Roots of Empathy programme, which I commend to you
so please look it up on Google, which is a parenting programme
for 3 to 11 year olds.
Q695 Chairman: Unfortunately the
budget of the House of Commons does not extend to your budget
so we will not be able to go this year.
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: Roots of
Empathy is an amazing programme to install in young children the
principles of parenting. Can I also make the point that there
are very substantial numbers of children, we estimate getting
on for 2 million perhaps, who are exposed to hidden harm in households
where there is domestic violence. 12 million episodes of domestic
violence are recorded where there are drug addiction and alcohol
problems. These children are living in very difficult and very
violent circumstances so not every parent is an angel and we need
to have systems to look at those that are not and deal with the
consequences. Of course the corporate parent I alluded to already.
We are failing our children in care.
Q696 Mr Streeter: Opening up the
British Crime Survey to under 16s, you talked a lot about listening
to children and presumably you would support 10 to 15 year olds
also being included in that survey.
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: Most certainly.
Q697 Chairman: Did you say corporate
parent? How would you define the corporate parent?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: I am talking
about children in the care of the state looked after by local
authorities.
Q698 Chairman: How many buddy groups
are there in the UK? You do not cover Scotland.
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: At this
moment in time we started with 100 children who advise us on the
priority. We have refined it down to six buddy groups in different
parts of the country at the moment.
Q699 Chairman: Who chooses the buddies?
Sir Al Aynsley-Green: We now have
over three years of work and an extensive network of collaborators
with voluntary organisations, for example, who are very, very
happy to work with us and they are giving us access to their children.
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