Jim
Knight: To help the Committee, I shall undertake to write
hon. Members in order to clarify that the main reason why I am
resisting the amendment is because we want to retain flexibility. If I
have failed to win the argument on flexibility, I apologise to the
Committee and the hon. Gentleman, but I shall write to clarify the very
similar wording of the two clauses.
Mr.
Paice: I am grateful to the Minister for that small
concession, but the principle remains. We believe that this is an
important point of principle, and a number of outside bodies share our
belief. Question
put, That the amendment be
made:— The
Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes
8.
Division
No.
1] Question
accordingly negatived.
Question proposed, That
the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr.
Williams: I am disappointed that the Minister could not
see his way to accepting the amendment because there are other aspects
of the clause that give me cause for concern. Who can initiate a
procedure for establishment? There are many thousands of commons
throughout England and Wales and all essentially could apply to become
the statutory body, the association or whatever we decide to call it in
the end.I would think that the people best placed to initiate
such a procedure would be the owner of the common, the people who
exercise rights, or perhaps even inactive graziers or people involved in
the management of nature conservation, access or some other element of
the public good.
Organisations or individuals
could initiate the procedure for establishment, which would cause a lot
of work for a voluntary association, if that were in existence, or the
national authority. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs or even the National Assembly of Wales could be swamped by
applications—I will not call them malicious—that were not
based on the best interests of the common. It causes me real concern,
because if such an application were made and it resulted in a lot of
work for individuals who were interested in the common, it might deter
them from making genuine applications that could improve
it. 5.45
pm People might
not consult enough among commoners or voluntary associations to
determine the most appropriate application, whether by an individual
common or by a number coming together to form a statutory body of
sufficient substance to justify the administration and costs. I
attempted to table an amendment to that effect, but I could not fit it
into the
Bill. There is cause for concern, which the Minister could address on
Report by coming forward with a limitation on the people who could
initiate such a procedure. Jim
Knight: Clause 27 sets out a procedure for establishing a
commons association. An association will be brought into existence when
the Secretary of State makes an establishment order, and orders will be
tailored to the specific circumstances of the common or commons in
question. The first step in the establishment process will be at the
local level, and it is for local legal interests to decide whether they
want to establish a statutory association. We shall not impose an
association on a common.
I can reassure the hon.
Gentleman that a commons association will not be foisted by interested
outsiders upon those involved in managing the common. We realise that a
local interest may need some help at the preliminary stage. In recent
years, the Rural Development Service has been significantly involved in
helping set up voluntary commons associations to assist commoners in
their applications for agri-environment funding. As part of Natural
England, the service will continue that work. Natural England will play
a vital role in helping to facilitate the creation of those local
associations where they make good sense, but not to impose
them.
Mr.
Williams: I believe that the Minister is genuine about
that. He has before given us the assurance that DEFRA and—I
certainly hope—the National Assembly for Wales will not be
involved in enforcing the establishment of statutory associations.
However, that is not my concern. My concern is that people who are not
legally involved with the common might get it into their heads that
statutory associations are a good thing and make applications on behalf
of commons for which they have little interest.
Nothing in this Bill prevents
somebody from initiating a procedure on behalf of a common where the
great majority has no interest in forming an association. The time and
effort that would have to go into consultation and representation would
be entirely wasted, and they would use up a huge amount of energy that
could be better expended in another
direction.
Jim
Knight: Regardless of who makes the application for a
commons association, the national authority will still be required to
ensure that there is substantial support for it. In assessing the level
of support, the national authority will publish the draft establishment
order and representations on it, paying particular regard to the views
of those with a legal interest in the common, regardless of who
applies. Where significant objections are made, there will be scope for
the national authority to, in turn, hold a local inquiry. Those
safeguards will prevent external interests from overriding the views of
those who would be most affected by any new commons
association—the people whom the hon. Gentleman seeks to protect.
There are sufficient
safeguards in the mechanisms that are being set up for the
establishment of a statutory commons association. It is intended to be
a
bottom-up process. Part 2 will not impose those associations on the key
local interests against their will.
Question
accordingly agreed to.
Clause 27 ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
5.50
pm Sitting
suspended for a Division in the House.
6.5
pm On
resuming— Clause
28 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
29Constitution Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Jim
Knight: Clause 29 requires the Secretary of State to make
regulations prescribing standard terms about the constitution and
administration of all commons associations. Regulations made under the
clause are subject to the affirmative procedure. The standard
constitution will cover matters that are relevant to all associations,
such as conduct of members, frequency of meetings, and financial
reporting.
Paddy
Tipping: Is it prescribed in the standard constitution
that sittings of such bodies be in
public?
Jim
Knight: We would expect that normally the sittings would
be but, as with most statutory bodies, there may be circumstances when
the associations may want to sit in
private. Each
association will also have its own establishment order that will set
out its functions. That order can modify the standard constitution when
necessary, or can replace standard terms with terms more suited to
local circumstances. Some Members may have seen the draft standard
constitution and the specimen draft establishment order that we
published last autumn, and which were wielded in the Chamber by the
hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. They illustrate how the
establishment order might integrate with and modify parts of the
standard constitution. There is also an example of one possible
approach to representation, and a voting mechanism for situations in
which there are different interests for a group of
commons.
Mr.
Llwyd: Is the Minister prepared to produce copies of the
two orders so that the Committee can examine them between now and the
conclusion of our deliberations? They came to me surreptitiously, but I
lost them, or maybe they were surreptitiously lifted—I am not
sure.
Jim
Knight: I apologise to the Committee—it would
probably have been useful had I anticipated that request and circulated
the documents in advance. They are available on the DEFRA website but I
shall make
sure that members of the Committee have copies. The net effect of the
documents would be to reduce the demands and potential costs on those
who want to create an association, but to leave them the flexibility
that they
need.
Mr.
Williams: I believe that the issues with which we shall
deal in this and the following clause will determine whether the
statutory associations succeed. If there is any doubt about the support
that the Minister has for the Bill, especially from commoners
themselves, it arises from these issues, so if he could supply the
draft documents that would be good. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd
Nant Conwy is a known magician, and the way in which he produced the
documents out of a hat on that occasion was extraordinary and well up
to his usual
standards. I hope
that there will be consultation on the standard constitution before the
regulations are made, because people would like to be involved, and
consultation would give them confidence that their interests are being
looked after. I have no doubt that there will be many amendments to the
standard constitution, because the nature of commons is extraordinarily
varied. For example, I have only to look to the common of Llangors lake
in my constituency, which is entirely composed of water, and over which
there are no rights at all, unless one can walk on water. I do not even
think that the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 applies to that
common, and I assure the Committee that there are no rights of piscary.
Yes, there will be amendments to the standard constitution, but that
standard constitution will be the basic document, and people must have
confidence in
it.
Jim
Knight: For information, the hon. Gentleman should know
that the standard constitution will be subject to affirmative
resolution, so it will be scrutinised by both
sides.
Mr.
Williams: That is a great comfort. I am not sure whether
many of the commoners whom I represent understand the affirmative
resolution procedure, but I am sure that they will be heartened by that
comment. The more time that the Minister, DEFRA and the National
Assembly for Wales can take on the issue, the better the rewards will
be. I assure him that I will be out there encouraging people to take up
this opportunity and make the most of it, but we must put the
foundation in place to make a success of what should be a good piece of
legislation. Question
put and agreed to.
Clause 29 ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Clause
30Constitution:
supplementary
Mr.
Williams: I beg to move amendment No. 101, in clause 30,
page 16, line 27, at end
insert— ‘(1A) Such
constitution or order under section 26 should ensure that holders of
rights on the common have a
majority.'.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following: Amendment No. 51, in clause 30, page 16, line 29, at end
insert— ‘( ) the proportion
of members of the association who should be owners of
rights.'. Amendment
No. 73, in clause 30, page 16, line 33, at end
insert— ‘(e) the holding of
meetings in
public'. Amendment
No. 37, in clause 30, page 16, line 35, leave out paragraph (3)(a) and
insert— ‘(a) the election of
at least half the members of the
association; (aa) the local
community from which members are to be drawn and the role of
representatives of town and parish
councils'. Amendment
No. 65, in clause 30, page 16, line 41, at end
insert— ‘(h) membership of
the association consisting of common rights holders, the owner of the
land, tenants and holders of sporting
rights.'. New
clause
3—Membership— ‘(1)
The membership of a commons association must reflect local
interests. (2) At least half of
the members must be
elected. (3) At least half of
the members must be resident in the area of the local authority in
which the common or town green is
situated.'.
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