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Session 2005 - 06 Publications on the internet Standing Committee Debates Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Bill [Lords] |
Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Bill [Lords] |
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Geoffrey Farrar, Committee
Clerk † attended
the Committee Standing Committee BTuesday 11 July 2006(Morning)[Mr. Derek Conway in the Chair]Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Bill [Lords]10.30
am
The
Chairman: Good morning. It is a warm day, so if anyone
wishes to remove their jacket, it will of course be perfectly in
order. I remind the
Committee that there is a money resolution in connection with the Bill,
and copies are available in the room. I remind members that adequate
notice should be given of amendments. As a general rule my co-Chairman,
Eric Martlew, and I do not intend to call starred amendments. Will all
colleagues ensure that their mobile phones, pagers and so on are turned
off, or at least on silent mode, during our
sittings? Tim
Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): On a point of
order, Mr. Conway. I was perhaps being presumptuous, but was it in
order for us to remove clothing, given the
conditions?
The
Chairman: I made a ruling in a Committee last week that
Bermuda shorts and flip-flops remained banned. That will continue.
Perhaps the blinds should come down lower as the day progresses, but we
shall see how Mr. Martlew feels about it this
afternoon.
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Skills (Mr.
Parmjit Dhanda): I beg to
move, That— (1)
during proceedings on the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Bill [Lords],
in addition to its first meeting at 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday 11th July,
the Standing Committee shall meet
at: (a) 4.00 p.m. on Tuesday
11th July, (b) 9.00 a.m. and
1.00 p.m. on Thursday 13th
July; (2) the Bill be
considered in the following order, namely, Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clause
2, Schedule 2, Clauses 3 to 5, Schedule 3, Clauses 6 to 25, Schedule 4,
Clauses 26 to 47, Schedules 5 and 6, Clauses 48 to 51, new Clauses, new
Schedules, remaining proceedings on the
Bill; (3) proceedings on the
Bill shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a
conclusion at 4.00 p.m. on Thursday 13th
July. I am
delighted to serve under your chairmanship in my first Committee as
Minister, Mr. Conway. I welcome Members from all sides. Many of us have
met before on a number of occasions, even though I have not been in
place for long, including not long ago on the Children and Adoption
Bill. I look forward
to detailed scrutiny of what I accept is a technical and complex Bill.
It has had good
scrutiny in the Lords, and I am delighted that the finest Whips known to
Parliament, on both sides of the House, have struck a good deal on the
scrutiny that we may give it this week. I look forward to engaging with
both Opposition parties and with Government Back Benchers today and on
Thursday. I shall not
hold up events further as there is a lot to get
through. Mrs.
Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is indeed
a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr.
Conway, as it will be to do so under Mr.
Martlew. The
Opposition have a strong team to ensure, as the Minister put it, that
we have a thorough review of the Bill, given its technicalities and
complexities. I am particularly pleased to have on the Conservative
Benches my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson), who
with his experience and background in education will bring a great deal
to the debate; my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham
(Tim Loughton), whose expertise in matters to do with children and
health are well known to many in the Committee; and our Whip, my hon.
Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr. Evennett), who also
has great experience that will add to our debate in the next few days.
We will be joined this afternoon by my hon. Friend the Member
for St. Albans (Anne Main), who is otherwise engaged this
morning. Her background in local government will be of particular
use. No legislation
can guarantee the safety of children or vulnerable adults. The Bill
covers only one part of the 31 recommendations made by Bichard. That
means that while examining it, we must consider how to engender a
broader culture of vigilance and support. We must also ensure that we
touch on other progress being made as a result of the Bichard report. I
am sure that the Minister will want to ensure that the Committee is
fully briefed, particularly on the police information systems so
critical to ensuring that the Bichard recommendations are fully
realised. Data and systems are not the answer; they are simply part of
the answer, and we must keep that uppermost in our
minds. The Bill has
benefited from a great deal of debate in the House of Lords, and the
amendments passed there will be well known to Committee members. They
relate to better read-across between the two lists and to malicious
allegations. However, the Bill will benefit from further consideration.
The focus of the amendments tabled by the official Opposition is the
role of the independent barring board, its processes and practices and
what we expect of
it. The other area
critical to the Bill’s success concerns the need to ensure that
there is clarity on the thresholds used when action is to be taken. We
shall raise other issues, too, including the use of secondary
legislation, which is extensive in the Bill, overseas workers, and
exemptions for certain groups. A number of other issues will be drawn
out from our amendments and dealt with in
detail. Many of the
issues that we have raised through amendments were raised in two
specific consultations: the post-Bichard consultation, held last year,
and the Department for Education and Skills
consultation,
which reported in April. The Minister is relatively new to his post but,
as he pointed out, he has been thrown in at the deep end and has
already debated two Bills with us so far. I will perhaps challenge him
on why more heed has not been paid to the feedback that he and his
colleagues had from those consultation processes, because if we ask
experts their opinion but choose not to take their advice, we risk
undermining their trust, their interest and perhaps their help in
future. I would be interested in the Minister’s thoughts on
that. I said on Second
Reading that the systems that we have in place have too often been
unreliable, and research suggests that that statement is correct. We
are all aware of the Ofsted report that came out around the time of
Second Reading, which found that 90 per cent. of schools were ignoring
the scheme to stop paedophiles working as supply teachers. That is
coupled with the Commission for Social Care Inspection report, which
showed a widespread failure to use safe vetting procedures that are
already in place; 40 per cent. of children’s homes were not
using those procedures. It is our responsibility today to ensure that
we weave out of the Bill the opaqueness that is in it and that we add
clarity. We hope that we will succeed in doing so through the
amendments
tabled. Annette
Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): On behalf of my
hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) and myself, I
welcome the Minister. I imagine that this is the first Committee in
which he has been in control of the proceedings. I am sure that it will
be a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Conway, and that of
Mr. Martlew. This is the first time that I have served on a Committee
with you. We look forward to working with the hon. Member for
Basingstoke (Mrs. Miller) and her team. We have been engaged with so
many children’s Bills this year that we have worked together
quite a lot. I echo
what the hon. Lady said about the Bill’s complexity and its
technical aspects. Inevitably, we have very carefully to consider
definitions of words, because it is so important that we get the Bill
right. It will also be incredibly important that we end up with a Bill
whose demands and requirements can be communicated clearly to all those
whom it affects. That theme should flow through all our discussions: we
need to think about how the details of the Bill will be
communicated. Some of
our amendments are probing amendments. Even though a great deal of work
was done in the other place, we would like to be absolutely clear that
the various definitions of activities contain no loopholes. It is most
important to get the Bill right, and I hope that every member of the
Committee will make a full contribution.
I was privileged to serve on
the Committee that considered the Sexual Offences Act 2003, and we had
excellent cross-party working. One went home at the weekend thinking
that one was really doing a really good job. I hope that that is how we
feel about our consideration of the Bill. We Liberal Democrats commit
ourselves to being brief and very much to the point.
Question put and agreed
to.
Clause 1Independent
barring
board
Mrs.
Miller: I beg to move amendment No. 3, in
clause 1, page 1, line 3, after
‘Independent’, insert ‘Monitoring
and’.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following amendments: No. 5, in
schedule 1, page 32, line 33, leave
out sub-paragraph (3) and
insert— ‘(3A) No fewer than
half of the members of the IBB shall be relevant persons seconded from
a local authority. (3B) For the
purposes of this paragraph “relevant persons” means
persons with skills in any aspect of child protection or the protection
of vulnerable
adults.’. No.
6, in
schedule 1, page 33, line 36, at
end insert— ‘(d)
establishing and maintaining a list of those who have applied to be
monitored; (e) monitoring the
quality of prescribed information supplied to the IBB from regulated
activity providers and any persons who hold records of convictions or
cautions for the use of police
forces; (f) putting in place
and regularly monitoring systems that maximise the accuracy of the
monitored list and the barred
list; (g) establishing and
maintaining a secure on-line system for access to barred lists for
employers.’. No.
10, in
schedule 1, page 33, line 36, at
end insert— ‘(8B) IBB shall
implement a comprehensive and ongoing communications programme to
ensure that all groups affected by the vetting and barring scheme are
informed of their rights and responsibilities under the
law. No. 7,
in
schedule 1, page 33, line 41, at
end insert— ‘(3) The report
shall contain information on the quality of information provided to the
IBB from regulated activity providers and any person who holds the
records of convictions or cautions for the use of police
forces.’. No.
8, in
schedule 1, page 33, line 41, at
end insert— ‘(3) The report
shall be laid before Parliament for
debate.’. No.
9, in
schedule 1, page 34, line 28, leave
out sub-sub-paragraph
(c).
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