Mr.
Reid: There is common ground with the Minister in that we
agree that Irish citizens should be able to donate to parties operating
in Northern Ireland, and also that there should be a ban on foreign
donations, but it concerns me that the measure is such that it may
permit a foreigner to donate money to an Irish political party and that
money may then be spent in Northern Ireland. Can he clarify the
situation regarding foreign donations—that is, from people who
are neither British nor Irish—to an Irish political party, with
the money ending up being spent in Northern
Ireland?
Mr.
Hanson: Again, at the moment, the measure is framed so as
to ensure that Irish citizens can donate to Northern Ireland political
parties. We have banned foreign donations; we accept in the legislation
that Irish citizens can donate to parties in the north, for historical
reasons. I hope there is agreement with the Liberal Democrats. I say to
the hon. Member for East Antrim that it may benefit Sinn Fein or the
SDLP, but is he telling me that there is no single person in the
population of the Republic of Ireland who may wish to donate to his
party, the party of the hon. Member for North Down or the Alliance
party in Northern Ireland? I cannot rule that out. It is perfectly
legitimate for an individual resident—let us say someone in a
border area of Northern Ireland, or an Irish citizen who believes in
the Union—to donate to the party represented by the hon. Member
for East Antrim for those reasons. There is no reason why that cannot
be
done.
Mr.
Wallace: Perhaps if I put a scenario to the Minister he
may understand. He talked about an Irish citizen, but proposed new
section 71B(2) refers to
“a body of that description or
category would be entitled under Irish law to donate to an Irish
political party.”
The scenario works in
one sense if we are talking about the nationalist party. What if a
Unionist party chose to register a body incorporate, which is in the
Irish legislation, in the south of Ireland and a foreign
donor—perhaps a British citizen living in the United States or a
Saudi Arabian donor or whoever we like—donated to an Ulster
Unionist party based in the south, which passed that donation, through
the Irish legislation, to Northern Irish politics, which would be
perfectly admissible? The problem is that anybody can take advantage of
the Irish law to get foreign donations into the
system.
Mr.
Hanson: The hon. Gentleman will know that that could be an
issue that might need to be examined. The position of the legislation
is clear: we ban foreign donations to British political parties
operating in Great Britain and the United Kingdom as a whole, including
Northern Ireland. Irish citizens are potentially able to donate to
parties operating in Northern Ireland because of the historical nature
of the position between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I
would not expect there to be any situation whereby under Irish law and
British law foreign individuals could subvert British Government
legislation to secure donations to British political parties operating
in Great Britain and/or in Northern
Ireland.
Mr.
Wallace: It is not subverting Irish law; Irish law allows
overseas donations. They can come from either an Irish citizen overseas
or a support group of an Irish-based political party overseas. It is
not a matter of saying that we can just let Irish citizens donate. No,
we cannot do anything. We do what the Irish say because that is in the
second part of the legislation. It allows overseas donations into
Ireland, so it allows overseas donations via that route into the United
Kingdom Northern Ireland political
environment.
Mr.
Hanson: Parties that operate in the Republic of Ireland
and in Northern Ireland are separate legal entities. Like individuals,
they will be party to British law. Irish citizens can donate
Irish-based resources and Irish-based finance from Irish citizens to
political parties in the north, but that precludes donations from
overseas individuals who are not Irish citizens. The position relates
to the fact that Irish citizens, but not citizens of other nations, can
support political parties in the
north.
Lembit
Öpik: The discussion reminds me of what happened on
the Floor of the House: the longer the Minister spoke, the more
agitated the Opposition became. I shall explain why. Does he not see
that there is nothing theoretically to prevent the Labour party from
setting up something in the south of Ireland and getting foreign
donations into that part of the corporate organisation, transferring
the money to the north and bringing it into the rest of the United
Kingdom? The Minister
must accept that he is vulnerable because of the recent experience that
showed that political parties will do anything to get round
the
conditions. What guarantee do we have that the legislation will not fail
to achieve standardisation and elimination of foreign
donations? Mr.
Hanson: The simple, straightforward reason that United
Kingdom law bans foreign donations, with the exception of Irish
donations from Irish individuals. That resource cannot be laundered
through an Irish individual to a British political party or to a party
operating in the United Kingdom. It is about individuals who are
resident and Irish citizens being able to donate on the island of
Ireland to support political parties in the north. There is an honest
disagreement in Committee about the Bill and the role of Irish citizens
in supporting parties in the
north.
Sammy
Wilson: The Minister emphasised proposed new section
71B(1)(a) and the role of the Irish citizen. Will he comment on
proposed new section 71B(1)(b), which refers
to “a body which is of a
prescribed description or category and in relation to which any
prescribed conditions are
met.”? Does that not
cover the point made by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre that a
party in Northern Ireland could set up a body in the Irish Republic and
receive donations from a foreign donor through that body into Northern
Ireland?
Mr.
Hanson: No, it does not. There is an honest disagreement
between the hon. Gentleman and me on such matters. I believe that the
situation ensures that Northern Ireland political parties and GB
political parties are separate legal entities from those in the
Republic of Ireland. Under the Bill, an individual who is an Irish
citizen and involved in the Republic of Ireland can donate political
party resources to parties operating in the north, as indeed, under
Irish law, can bodies. However, the two are separate entities and
United Kingdom law on foreign donations will apply to that, with the
exception of Irish-based citizens and bodies. From my perspective, that
means that money cannot be laundered through the Irish Government and
Irish political parties or individuals to support British political
parties or Northern Ireland political parties, because that would be
illegal under United Kingdom
legislation.
Mr.
Wallace: The Minister is generous in giving way. The
disagreement is about a technical, legal position that is either right
or wrong. It is not a disagreement about whether we should or should
not accept the provision. It is not illegal to donate to a Northern
Ireland party if the body undertaking the donation is either an Irish
citizen or a body under the rules of Irish electoral legislation. It is
therefore not illegal for a body in the south to give money to a
political party in the north, even if the money that the body is
donating comes from abroad. That is a fact, not an angle of
disagreement. This concerns the reading of the
legislation. If the
Minister tabled an amendment to remove the provision on bodies donating
and said that that had to be done by an Irish citizen, that would go
some way to alleviate the problem. He
could—
The
Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman’s interventions
are getting longer and
longer. 12.45
pm
Mr.
Hanson: There is an honest disagreement between us. In my
view the matters relating to this are tight in the sense that we have
supported the Irish Government’s definition of Irish citizens
and their definition of donations to political parties. We do so
because we wish the Republic of Ireland to be able, as part of the
Belfast agreement, to support Northern Ireland parties should they so
wish. It is meant to be ring-fenced around the Republic of Ireland. I
believe that that is the effect of the Bill. I believe that hon.
Members have a fundamental disagreement with the citizens and bodies of
the Republic of Ireland donating to parties in the north of Ireland.
That is what motivates them in Committee. That is why I will ask my
hon. Friends to support the clause as drafted and to reject the
amendments.
Lady
Hermon: I have listened patiently to the Minister and to
remarks that have been made by other hon. Members. I was particularly
struck by the comments of the hon. Member for Belfast, South. If I
could briefly put on my Northern Ireland Affairs Committee hat, I
should tell the Minister that in our first foreign overseas foray we
visited Dublin. It was part of our inquiry into organised crime and the
hon. Member for East Antrim was also
there— [Interruption.] I beg his pardon. He
was not present on that occasion.
We were particularly struck by
the witnesses’ concern about the Northern bank robbery and how
it affected the way that Sinn Fein’s operation in the Republic
was perceived. Until the recent robbery in the south of England, it was
the largest bank robbery in British history: £26.5 million or
thereabouts was stolen just before Christmas 2004. The Police Service
of Northern Ireland believes that a substantial amount of that horde of
cash was taken to the Republic of Ireland and some notes are believed
to have been
traced. It was very
notable that witnesses in the Irish Republic did not refer to the
murder of Robert McCartney by the provisional IRA or those connected
with the provisional IRA in Belfast. For them the most undermining
event that had taken place in Northern Ireland had been the bank
robbery. I find it unbelievable and I am offended that the Minister
chose to rely upon the Belfast agreement, an agreement which I
supported, as a defence. I would be amazed if he could turn to a
specific phrase or clause that entitled the Irish Government to support
Irish parties in “the north”—that was the
unfortunate phrase he used: it is Northern Ireland and it is part of
the United Kingdom—if they so wished. That is not my
recollection of the agreement for which I voted. I should be delighted
if the Minister could bring in a copy of the agreement this afternoon
and point out that
phrase. Given the
disquiet felt by very senior members of the Garda about how the
political system in the Republic of Ireland can be wholly undermined by
one party—Sinn Fein, connected with the IRA—by simply
buying influence through a bank robbery, I refuse to give my consent to
this
clause. Lembit
Öpik: Does the hon. Lady agree that what we have
seen once again is a Minister who is doing his best to defend a piece
of legislation that clearly has a flaw in it? I do not blame the
draftsmen for this because I believe that the Government want to keep
this loophole. Would she agree that we effectively have here a piece of
legislation with such a large loophole that it will not do anything to
assist the law-abiding parties who obey the principle and spirit of the
law, but will give an open gate to any party that wants to continue
with foreign donations to do it through the back door?
Lady
Hermon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his
remarks. Of course, I agree.
It is written in the Bill that
there will be an exemption for Irish citizens. The Minister has
confirmed that an Irish citizen could be in the Republic of Ireland and
make a donation of whatever size. There will be no limit on the size of
a donation, and no suggestion of any criteria that would be imposed. I
cannot in conscience accept that Sinn Fein can not only distort the
political system and undermine it in the Republic of Ireland, but that
I should ask them, invite them and encourage them to do so in Northern
Ireland, the part of the United Kingdom I love so well. I cannot and
will not do it. I shall not withdraw the amendment, and want to press
it to a vote.
Question put, That the
amendment be made.
The Committee
divided: Ayes 6, Noes
16.
Division
No.
3] Foster,
Mr. Michael
(Worcester)Question
accordingly negatived.
Question proposed, That
the clause, as amended, stand part of the
Bill.
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