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Standing Committee B
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chairmen:
Sir Nicholas Winterton, †
David Taylor
†Anderson, Mr. David (Blaydon) (Lab)
†Banks, Gordon (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
†Bellingham, Mr. Henry (North-West Norfolk) (Con)
†Brown, Mr. Russell (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
†Burt, Lorely (Solihull) (LD)
†Coaker, Mr. Vernon (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury)
†Cooper, Rosie (West Lancashire) (Lab)
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M. (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
†Durkan, Mark (Foyle) (SDLP)
†Ellwood, Mr. Tobias (Bournemouth, East) (Con)
†Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester) (Lab)
†Hanson, Mr. David (Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office)
†Harris, Mr. Tom (Glasgow, South) (Lab)
†Hendrick, Mr. Mark (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
†Hermon, Lady (North Down) (UUP)
†Hillier, Meg (Hackney, South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
†Hunt, Mr. Jeremy (South-West Surrey) (Con)
†Irranca-Davies, Huw (Ogmore) (Lab)
†McDonagh, Siobhain (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
†McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair (Belfast, South) (SDLP)
†Moon, Mrs. Madeleine (Bridgend) (Lab)
†Öpik, Lembit (Montgomeryshire) (LD)
†Robertson, Mr. Laurence (Tewkesbury) (Con)
†Robinson, Mr. Peter (Belfast, East) (DUP)
†Slaughter, Mr. Andrew (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush) (Lab)
†Todd, Mr. Mark (South Derbyshire) (Lab)
†Wallace, Mr. Ben (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con)
†Waltho, Lynda (Stourbridge) (Lab)
†Wilson, Sammy (East Antrim) (DUP)
Alan Sandall, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
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Thursday 8 December 2005
(Afternoon)
[David Taylor in the Chair]
Clause 2
Certification commissioner
Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 229, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert
‘First and Deputy First Minister Acting jointly’.—[Lady Hermon.]
1 pm
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are taking the following amendments: No. 230, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—
‘(1A) No appointment may be made under subsection (1) above without the approval of the First and Deputy First Minister acting jointly.’.
No. 41, in clause 24, page 13, line 18, at end add—
‘(2) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this section until he has made an order under section 2(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 2000 (c. 1) (ending suspension).’.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (UUP): Thank you, Mr. Taylor. We are unanimously delighted to sit under your chairmanship this afternoon, and we welcome you to this exciting Committee. It is exciting because this is the first time that we have been able to put the Minister on his mettle in defending, line by line, the clauses of this appalling legislation. I am sorry that he finds himself a little exasperated because we have made such little progress, but this is all in the interests of better justice in Northern Ireland. I will push amendments Nos. 229 and 230 to Divisions, because it is enormously important that he and the Government are consistent in their policy in Northern Ireland.
I find the Minister’s justification for refusing to accept the amendments extraordinary. I say that because he referred to at least two different sets of arguments. One is that this is an excepted matter. The term “excepted” is born out of the legislation that brought about Northern Ireland—the Government of Ireland Act 1920, under which there are reserved matters at Westminster, devolved matters and excepted matters. Excepted matters are limited; they include defence and taxation.
The Minister sought to persuade the Committee that because the certification commissioner will deal with those who might have committed acts of terrorism, this is an excepted matter. That cannot be the case and I need him to explain the policy to us. I
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again refer him to the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, which was taken through the House by his Government and his colleagues. Section 2 says that the
“First Minister and deputy First Minister, acting jointly”
may perform a certain function. Sections 3 and 4 include exactly the same provision in relation to other functions.
In the Committee that considered that legislation, I asked the Northern Ireland Office Minister responsible for those matters the question this Minister has posed today: if the First and Deputy First Ministers do not agree, one would have a veto over progress, so what would happen? The Northern Ireland Office Minister then responsible for those matters replied:
“Our stock answer would be that we are not planning for failure”.—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 29 January 2002; c. 68.]
At every juncture, the Government wrote it into the legislation that the First and Deputy First Ministers must act jointly on a range of judicial appointments. Those judges will deal with terrorist offences—for example, where Diplock courts are involved. What do such courts deal with apart from those who are accused of the most heinous crimes, which are scheduled offences? They deal with terrorism. The certification commissioner can be in no different category.
The Minister needs to explain why, in 2002, Government policy was that the First and Deputy First Ministers acting jointly should have such a significant role in judicial matters, but that, on this occasion, the situation involving the certification commissioner, who will sit only in Northern Ireland and will have an exclusively Northern Ireland remit, is different. Why do the Government wish to reject this amendment? Are they preparing for failure in restoring the institutions?
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The Committee divided: Ayes 8, Noes 17.
[Division No. 5]
AYES
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Hermon, Lady
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Wilson, Sammy
NOES
Anderson, Mr. David
Banks, Gordon
Brown, Mr. Russell
Burt, Lorely
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Cooper, Rosie
Foster, Mr. Michael
(Worcester)
Hanson, Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hillier, Meg
Irranca-Davies, Huw
McDonagh, Siobhain
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Todd, Mr. Mark
Waltho, Lynda
Question accordingly negatived.
Lady Hermon: I beg to move amendment No. 231, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—
‘(1A) Before making any appointment under subsection (1) above the Secretary of State must consult—
(a) the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission,
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(b) the Victims Commissioner and
(c) the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.’.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment No. 154, in schedule 1, page 15, line 28, leave out ‘is granted’ and insert ‘applies for’.
Amendment No. 155, in schedule 1, page 15, line 28, at end insert—
‘(1A) The commissioner shall consult, and have regard to the views of, the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner about arrangements to be made in fulfilling his duties under sub-paragraph (1).’.
Amendment No. 156, in schedule 1, page 15, line 28, at end insert—
‘(1A) It is the duty of the commissioner to secure that appropriate arrangements are made—
(a) to allow representations from victims about the case of each person who applies for a certificate of eligibility;
(b) to have regard to the views of victims about the case of each person who applied for a certificate of eligibility;
(c) to give the victims the reasons for his decision to grant or refuse a certificate of eligibility in every case.’.
Amendment No. 237, in schedule 1, page 15, line 33, leave out ‘a’ and insert ‘an unacceptable’.
Amendment No. 157, in schedule 1, page 15, line 33, at end insert—
‘(4) Before deciding whether to withhold any information on the grounds referred to in sub-paragraph (3) the commissioner must consult, and have the agreement of, the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner.’.
Amendment No. 52, in clause 3, page 2, line 36, at end insert—
‘(e) that the Victim Impact Assessment Panel has reported to the Commissioner that the issuing of a certificate to the applicant will not cause long-term alarm or distress to the victims of the offences specified in the application.’.
Amendment No. 53, in clause 3, page 3, line 17, at end add—
‘“Victim Impact Assessment Panel” means a body of persons with relevant professional qualifications established by the Secretary of State to establish the impact of the offences and the consequences of the provisions of this Act on victims.’.
Amendment No. 59, in clause 4, page 3, line 26, after ‘State’, insert
‘, the victims of the offences stated in the application’.
Amendment No. 14, in clause 4, page 3, line 27, at end insert
‘, following which victims and victims’ families shall be notified.
(4A) Following notification under subsection (4), the Secretary of State shall publish the names of applicants in such manner as he sees fit.’.
Amendment No. 118, in clause 4, page 3, line 27, at end insert—
‘(4A) The commissioner must inform the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner of the application.’.
Amendment No. 119, in clause 4, page 3, line 29, at end insert—
‘(5A) The Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner may make representations to the commissioner about the application.’.
Amendment No. 64, in clause 6, page 5, line 10, after ‘inform’, insert ‘the victims and’.
Amendment No. 126, in clause 6, page 5, line 10, at end insert
(c) inform the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner.’.
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Amendment No. 246, in clause 11, page 7, line 18, leave out from ‘person’ to end of line 19 and insert—
‘(b) to the appeals commissioners;
(c) to the victim, where identifiable and practicable;
(d) to the public in such manner as the Secretary of State sees fit.’.
Amendment No. 34, in clause 11, page 7, line 18, leave out ‘and’.
Amendment No. 35, in clause 11, page 7, line 19, at end insert
(c) to the victim or the victim’s next of kin.’.
Amendment No. 138, in clause 11, page 7, line 19, at end insert—
‘(c) the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner; and
(d) any other such persons as the Secretary of State believes appropriate.’.
Amendment No. 247, in clause 11, page 7, line 26, leave out from ‘person’ to end of line 27 and insert—
‘(b) to the Secretary of State;
(c) to the victim, where identifiable and practicable; and
(d) to the public in such manner as the Secretary of State sees fit.’.
Amendment No. 36, in clause 11, page 7, line 26, leave out ‘and’.
Amendment No. 37, in clause 11, page 7, line 27, at end insert
(c) to the victim or the victim’s next of kin.’.
Amendment No. 88, in clause 11, page 7, line 27, at end insert
Amendment No. 139, in clause 11, page 7, line 27, at end insert—
‘(c) to the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner, and
(d) to any other such persons as they believe appropriate.’.
Amendment No. 140, in clause 12, page 8, line 6, at end insert—
‘(2A) The Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner may appeal to the appeals commissioner against the grant of a certificate of eligibility.’.
Amendment No. 38, in clause 12, page 8, line 8, at end add—
‘(4) A victim, or his family, may appeal to the appeals commissioners against the grant of a certificate of eligibility.’.
New clause 3—Victims’ rights and entitlements—eligibility certificates—
‘In determining whether an applicant for an eligibility certificate meets the conditions set out in section 3 above, the commissioner shall give an opportunity for a victim, or the family of a victim, to make representations to him.’.
New clause 4—Victims’ rights and entitlements—special tribunals—
‘(1) Before the Special Tribunal established under section 8 sentences an applicant who pleads guilty or is found guilty of an offence, it shall give an opportunity for a victim, or the family of a victim, to make representations to it.
(2) In passing sentence, the Special Tribunal shall take into account any representations made to it under subsection (1).’.
New clause 6—Victims’ applications—
‘(1) Six months after the coming into force of this Act, a victim, or the family of a victim, may apply to the Special Tribunal to try a person who meets the conditions set out in section 3(2) but who has not made an application for a certificate of eligibility.
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(2) If an application is made under subsection (1), the Special Tribunal shall proceed to try the case as though the offender held a certificate of eligibility, in accordance with the provisions of section 8(3).
(3) A person found guilty of an offence by the Special Tribunal under the provisions of this section shall, if and when apprehended, serve the sentence set by the Special Tribunal.’.
Lady Hermon: The lead amendment is very important. It is important to give a voice to the victims in Northern Ireland. As drafted, this particularly offensive legislation will not give victims a voice and will not allow the truth to be heard. Amendment No. 231 would impose an obligation on the Secretary of State to consult with certain individuals or organisations before the appointment of the certification commissioner. Two key principles should be added: respect for human rights and respect for the views and suffering of victims. The Bill does not acknowledge either.
Other Members will want to speak to their amendments, so I will concentrate on amendment No. 231. Before the appointment of the certification commissioner, the Secretary of State should consult with the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, the Northern Ireland victims commissioner and the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
In this morning’s debate, the Minister touched on consultation with—and, I hope, support from—stakeholders. That is a ghastly word. Although pressed on the matter, he refused to identify exactly who the stakeholders would be. I would like him to say at the outset this afternoon that the Government will accept amendment No. 231. That would be meaningful to the victims in Northern Ireland and important in respect of human rights.
The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has only recently been reconstituted. That important statutory body was set up by the Belfast agreement and, again, put in place by this Government and given a particular role and remit. The Government are consulting on increasing the powers of the commission because they, and the Minister in his capacity as Minister responsible for criminal justice, have rightly said how fundamental and central human rights are in Northern Ireland and to every aspect of Government business.
Given the importance placed by the Minister and the Secretary of State on how good and worthy the new commission is, and all the fine words when the appointments were announced, I would like the Minister to say that he will offer more than just fine words—that is, he will put those fine words into effect by giving formal statutory recognition to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and ensuring that the Secretary of State consults before any certification commissioner is appointed.
Likewise, the Secretary of State should be obliged to consult with the newly appointed Northern Ireland victims commissioner. Sir Kenneth Bloomfield was the first such commissioner; his remit was time-limited. When he completed his report, which is entitled “We
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Will Remember Them”, that was the end of his term of duty, as it is called. I am pleased to say that, recently, a Royal Ulster Constabulary widow, a woman of considerable experience and high reputation who is held in high respect and regard, has been appointed as the—albeit interim, although I hope long-term—victims commissioner.
I shall take a moment to reflect on the Government policy announced by the Lord Chancellor, who is obviously a prominent figure. I am sure the Minister is familiar with the document issued by the Lord Chancellor in September, which is not that long ago. That consultation paper was about giving victims—particularly victims of murder and manslaughter—a voice. The Lord Chancellor said that victims should have a voice, and this year the Government made a commitment in their manifesto to put victims at the heart of the criminal justice system.
I would like the Minister to match his words and those of the Government at the time of the appointment of Northern Ireland’s victims commissioner. Instead of glowing words and praise, that individual should be given formal recognition in the Bill. Before the certification commissioner is appointed, the victims commissioner should be satisfied in that respect and formally recognised as a stakeholder in the appointment process.
I hope we all have the highest confidence in the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland; as the MP for North Down, I do. Given the very sensitive nature of the information that will have to be presented to the certification commissioner—information about the most heinous crimes that have taken place in Northern Ireland over 20 or 30 years—I, and other Committee members, I am sure, would be reassured if the Secretary of State had a positive duty to consult the PSNI’s Chief Constable. He, or perhaps she in future years, should be content and pleased with the appointment of the certification commissioner.
Frankly, I see no objection that the Minister could put to the amendment. I hope to have his support and that of all Committee members, right-thinking or not-thinking. I hope, too, that all have tuned in to this afternoon’s debate and will support amendment No. 231.
1.15 pm
Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I welcome you to the Committee, Mr. Taylor. I have worked with you before. It was a privilege to do so then, and it is today.
I shall go through the amendments briefly. Amendment No. 154 would remove “is granted” and insert “applies for”, when referring to a certificate of eligibility. As the Minister knows, the Bill has caused hurt, heartache, anxiety and fear in Northern Ireland. The words are disputed, but it proposes an effective amnesty for people who have committed the most awful crimes, some of which were described movingly on Second Reading, especially by the hon. Members for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) and for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson).
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It is bad enough that those found guilty of such offences will not even have to serve a single day in prison. They will not even have to carry out anything such as community service. Nor will they even have to appear in court. Indeed, there will not be a court. Nor will they even have to apply for a certificate of freedom themselves; someone else can do that for them. Those people will not touch the criminal justice system, but will be dealt with at arm’s length.
I am worried about the victims and their relatives, several of whom have travelled to the House of Commons to meet the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and many others, including some members of the Committee. They are hurt and angry. If they cannot obtain justice under the Bill—some of us will try to amend it so that they obtain a degree of justice—we should at the very least keep them informed of what is going on. Lack of knowledge of what is happening can so often make matters worse for the victims.
We need to ensure that the victims are involved in the process, and that means involvement from the start. They should be given information when an application is made for a certificate, not when that certificate is granted. If they are not given the information until the certificate is granted, they will, in effect, have been excluded from the entire process. The victims might not want to become involved or to use the information at all, but the amendment would give them the opportunity to become involved at the start, or part way through the process if they so wish. It is consistent with amendments that other hon. Members have tabled, which involve the Northern Ireland victims and human rights commissioners.
Amendment No. 155 would require the commissioner to consult
“and have regard to the view of the Northern Ireland Victims Commissioner about arrangements to be made in fulfilling his duties under sub-paragraph (1)”,
which refers to giving information to victims. Amendment No. 156 would allow representations from victims to be made about
“the case of each person who applies for a certificate”
and regard to be paid to those views. Victims would also be given the reasons for granting or refusing to grant a certificate in every case.
Amendment No. 118 would require the commissioner to inform the victims commissioner of the application. Amendment No. 119 would allow for the victims commissioner to make representations to the commissioner about each application. Amendment No. 126 would require the victims commissioner to be informed if a certificate were cancelled. Under the Bill, the defendant and the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland are required to be notified, but victims are not. The amendment would put the victims at the heart of the process.
Amendment No. 138 would require the victims commissioner and anyone else the Secretary of State considered appropriate to be informed of the suspension of a licence. Amendment No. 139 is a similar proposal. Amendment No. 140 would give the right of appeal to the victims commissioner against the
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refusal to award or against the cancellation of a licence. The Bill gives the right of appeal to the person concerned in the case of an application being refused or a licence revoked, and to the Secretary of State against the granting of a licence. Again, the victim is missing from the process. Our amendment attempts to put the victim at the heart of the process and to begin to relieve their pain.
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