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Mr. Djanogly: As the Minister rightly said, the issue of imitation firearms is fraught with difficulty. We believe that this hasty legislation has been poorly thought through and without proper consultation. Clearly, there is no way in which the Government could have consulted before today on the new clause, which they tabled only last Wednesday. They certainly have not given us the opportunity to consult on it. I can tell the Minister, however, that we have consulted widely on the clause and that I have received hundreds of letters from interested parties.
Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman complains that the legislation was drafted hastily. Does he know how long some of us, and in particular the Police Federation, have campaigned for a ban on imitation weapons? Some of us would say that the legislation was not drafted too hastily, but is overdue.
Mr. Djanogly: I appreciate how long certain people, not least the hon. Lady, have been pushing for this
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legislation. She must recognise, however, that the Government introduced it in the most unconsultative manner that one could ever imagine. I do not blame her for that, but that is the situation that we have been left with, and she might like to discuss that privately with the Minister after the sitting.
I must say, however, that the Government's last-minute amendments really have saved the clause from totally ruining the leisure pursuits and even the livelihoods of tens of thousands of people in this country. The Minister talked away quite smoothly what amounts to a huge climbdown by the Government, but it is still a climbdown.
That deactivated weapons should be exempted from the scope of the clause is welcome, as is the Government's belated recognition of the interests of galleries, museums, theatres, the film industry, television and historical re-enactment groups. That it should have taken the Government this long to realise their untenable position was simply staggering, however, and the lack of notice given to the Opposition about the Government's amendments was unacceptable.
Hazel Blears: May I direct the hon. Gentleman to clause 30(2)(a)? The original version of the Bill says:
''The Secretary of State may by regulations . . . provide for exceptions and exemptions''.
Surely he accepts that we always intended to propose exceptions and exemptions, as we realised that this was a difficult area of law and that we needed to listen to the representations that we all received in the summer months from various concerned groups.
Mr. Djanogly: I am afraid that the Minister is now digging the hole that she started earlier. What she says might be written into the Bill, but we received no notice of the Government's intentions in this regard. Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people in this country have been put out and have been very concerned by the Government's lack of notice of their proposals. The fact that we heard only last Wednesday in no way makes me happier. For that reason, we shall table several amendments to this part of the Bill in order to limit the effect that we still believe it will have on law-abiding businesses and lawful pastimes.
Following enactment of the Bill, it will be possible to own a realistic imitation firearm, and also to make a gift of one—but that is it; no one will be able purchase one, because it will be illegal to sell them in the UK, although we need to investigate the non-UK position, which we shall come to later.
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Based on consultation with the British Association for Shooting and Conservation and the Gun Trade Association, it seems that there may be as many as 30 million imitation firearms in the UK—excluding toys, of which there are between 30 million and 50 million. According to the National Criminal Intelligence Service, the replica firearms market has doubled in value since 1999; it is estimated to be worth between £30 million and £40 million a year.
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The Government say in the regulatory impact assessment that the estimated sale of blank firers and soft air guns is about 350,000 per annum. If realistic toys were included, that number could be at least doubled. A ban on the sale of imitation weapons would affect a number of companies in the supply chain, from importers to those involved in distribution and sale. It is important that we realise the magnitude of the change when considering how to regulate imitation firearms.
The Home Office regulatory impact assessment says that an amendment to firearms legislation to prohibit the sale of imitation firearms to under-18s could cause an estimated loss of sales of between £15 million and £20 million. A ban on the sale and manufacture of realistic imitations would cause an identical loss of sales. Having spoken to the industry, we believe that those figures are conservative.
Despite the Government's belated recognition of several respectable and law-abiding interest groups, my objective is to ensure that their and others' interests are properly represented, and that those groups are excluded from the scope of the Bill as categorically as possible and that their pursuits and activities are as unaffected as possible.
Although it is good that the Government realise the serious but unintended potential of the clause to harm groups such as re-enactors and museums, the Government's approach merely provides such groups with a defence to a criminal offence. That is not fair on law-abiding citizens, who should have been exempted from the scope of the Bill from the outset. What about the interests of private collectors who want to realise the value of their collections, and those who participate in the sport of airsoft? We believe that their interests remain unaddressed by the Government's amendments.
Government amendment No. 300 is welcome in that it allows the deactivation of weapons to continue. Coupled with new clause 21, it excludes deactivated weapons from the scope of the clause. It is amazing that it has taken the Government so long to do that, which highlights the lack of proper thought and consultation. Antique firearms, too, are excluded from the definition of realistic imitation firearms. What about the imitation of antiques that have not been deactivated, which are used to fire blanks? They are commonly used in historical re-enactments and films. I should be grateful if the Minister would deal with that matter.
Much of the Bill applies to imitation firearms and not just to realistic imitation firearms. Will toys, bananas or even table legs be included in the broad definition of an imitation firearm as opposed to a ''realistic'' imitation firearm? In March this year, Robert Downey used a banana in a blue carrier bag to threaten William Claridges Ltd. in Tower Hamlets. He was heard to say that if he did not get the money he would shoot the staff.
Then there was the man carrying a table leg, who was shot by an officer who mistook the table leg for a
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gun. Harry Stanley, a 46-year-old, was shot in the head in 1999. He was walking home from a pub in Hackney in east London with a table leg in a plastic bag when someone, thinking that Stanley was carrying a sawn-off shot gun, called the police. The police claimed that they shouted, ''Stop—armed police!'' When Mr. Stanley turned around, they fired.
There was also the recently reported case of a 10-year-old boy in Salisbury allegedly being threatened with arrest by armed police officers for using a cap gun in the street during a game of cowboys and Indians.
Such scenarios illustrate the immense difficulty and the possible absurdities of trying to create a workable definition of ''imitation'', and the need to consult interested bodies and a variety of experts. If a courgette or a water pistol can pass as a firearm in a dark alley, then the whole exercise of creating a subjective definition could be futile. In the right context, virtually anything could be confused with a firearm. In any event, there are plenty of other offences that would cover a banana being used in a robbery—such as that of robbery, for instance. The Government are on the verge of making it an offence to carry a banana in public place.
On Second Reading it was acknowledged that it might be difficult to find a definition, but that should not deter us from finding one.
Ms Abbott: I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, and he has talked about the interests of businesses and historical re-enactment societies—but why does he not talk about the interests of the taxpayer, who has to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds every year on firearms units being called out to incidents in which it turns out that the young person involved has an imitation weapon? Has he no concern for the interests of the taxpayer?
Mr. Djanogly: I have every concern for the interests of the taxpayer, and I shall address them later. In the meantime, I shall continue to address the amendment.
On Second Reading it was acknowledged that the definition is difficult, but that should not deter us from finding one. In its consultation paper, ''Controls on Firearms'', the Home Office says that previous suggestions included placing restrictions on the sale of imitations. It goes on:
''These options have been rejected in the past because of impracticalities of enforcement. It has proved difficult to find a workable legal definition of an 'imitation firearm' and we do not believe that the level of effort required by agencies to administer additional restrictions is offset by public safety gains. This is why we introduced the new offence of possession in a public place without legal authority or reasonable excuse. We do not therefore propose that imitations are licensed or their sales restricted.''
Steve McCabe: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the document goes on to cite a number of countries and US states in which there are practical examples of restrictions and bans on replicas and imitations?
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