Violent Crime Reduction Bill |
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Mr. Clappison: We now come to appeals. The Minister has spoken at some length about consultation and the representations that will be made while the local authority carries out its deliberations and before it reaches its decision. We thought that it would be appropriate to table an amendment to explore what happens after it has reached that decision. What are the possibilities for appeal? We would like to hear the Minister’s comments, because the issue will clearly affect businesses very seriously and it needs to be explored. The amendment is framed in the normal terms for such an amendment and raises the possibility of an appeal to the Crown court. As you will no doubt know,
Hazel Blears: I welcome the hon. Member for Hertsmere to his place on the Front Bench. Charm and efficiency appear to be the order of the day. The provisions would create a right of appeal against the designation of an area as an alcohol disorder zone. Amendment No. 45 would make an appeal exercisable through the Crown Court, while the new clauses discuss the introduction of a bespoke alcohol disorder zone appeals tribunal—but we might get into a bit of heavy weather with that. I shall resist the amendments because we have tried to design the alcohol disorder zone process to be flexible and as speedy as possible, to tackle the very real problems that we face. As I said to the hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth, we have tried to build in a series of checks and balances to ensure fairness between the parties, without making the process too bureaucratic. Those checks and balances include a joint police-local authority trigger, so there must be consultation between the police and the local authority, and a recognition that there is a real problem. There will be a formal consultation process lasting 28 days, so that people will know what proposals, including charging proposals, are in the action plan. There will also be an eight-week period to allow for commencement of the action plan, and if people show willing during that period and take action to solve the problems, there will be no need to move to designation. There will then be a formal three-monthly review of designation, and I hope that hon. Members feel that that is a fairly short period—we are not asking people to pay charges for months or years without a formal review. If people come together to take action to solve the problem of drunken behaviour and disorder, we intend to be able to lift the designation so that they no longer have to pay the charges. I genuinely believe that that series of checks and balances is sufficient for those involved not to have to go through a lengthy appeals process. Appeals to the Crown court could take an inordinate time. Clause 12(9) makes provision—we intend to cover this in regulations—for appeals relating to the payment, collection and enforcement of the charge, in accordance with general local authority provisions. Where charges are made, people will be entitled to challenge those charges and to make an appeal. Although there will be no appeal against the designation, therefore, there will be measures to challenge the charging provisions. That series of checks and balances should give people sufficient reassurance that we intend the policy to operate fairly, and I ask the hon. Member for Hertsmere to withdraw the amendment. Mr. Clappison: I am grateful to the Minister for her response, which was useful. She has elucidated the Government’s thinking, taking us through the various
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Mr. Clappison: I cannot let the clause pass without a little more detail from the Minister on the Government’s thinking about the contents of the action plan under subsection (6). We heard a little in earlier debates on the question of consultation, but nothing about what the contents of the plan would be. We need to hear something about that from the Minister. Besides the requirements for businesses, the action plan also has requirements for the local authorities and police force. Clearly, they have an important role to play. I had the pleasure of serving on the Home Affairs Committee when it conducted an inquiry into this and I was struck when the Committee was told in evidence about the sheer volume of people on our streets, in particular late on Friday and Saturday nights, most of them young people under 25. The Committee was told by the chief constable of Nottinghamshire, for example, that in the run-up to Christmas last year on a Friday or Saturday night in December there could be up to 100,000 people on the streets. The sheer volume of people in an area of night-time entertainment must be addressed. I want to hear some of the Minister’s thinking about that. She knows of the issues raised in the Home Affairs Committee about the need for good transport facilities to get people easily away from town centres when they want to leave, and the need for such basic things as toilet facilities in city centres. She will also be aware of the Committee’s recommendations about the need to incorporate the idea of large numbers of people into the planning process so that town centres can be properly planned to cope with such numbers. In a lot of such cases it is the volume of people contained in a particular area that is part of the problem. We need to hear from the Minister the detail of what the Government are expecting local authorities and police officers to do about that. Steve McCabe: I agree with the Minister that we want a short process that addresses the problem rather than an extended, judicial, bureaucratic process. My fear, and that of some of my constituents—many other members of the Committee have alluded to the same fear—is about what happens when the local authority does not pay due attention to its own responsibilities for the problem, whether that is to do with the provision of public toilets, the nature of the bus service or the location of taxi facilities. The guidance that is issued must offer some capacity, without making it an extended process, for other bodies to comment on local authorities’ responsibility. Otherwise the local authority, as one of the ring holders, could largely dictate and shape a plan
I do not want a long-drawn-out process, but it seems to me that it would be possible to make it clear in guidance that the local authority, when considering an action plan, has to be honest and forthright about its responsibilities. There must be some mechanism through which people can draw to its attention feelings that they think are part of the problem. Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): Can the Minister cast a little more light on the designation of alcohol disorder zones, which was touched on briefly in amendment No. 44. There is some concern about the ability to designate an alcohol disorder zone in an area where alcohol is consumed unrelated to where it is purchased. I know that we have been through the arguments a number of times, but I am not sure whether there is clarity on one particular point. Many of us have had representations from the supermarket, bingo club or whatever. One such example was brought to my attention two weeks ago by a bingo operator that operates in the vicinity of a municipal car park, but has no authority over the car park and no responsibility for it. Youths frequently buy alcohol elsewhere, go to the car park and cause disorder. When the police are called, as they frequently are, they take note that the location is outside that particular bingo hall. I know that that is already a problem, because the operators have had robust discussions with the local authority licensing committee because although the trouble is nothing to do with them, the police reports show a large number of incidents in the vicinity of their bingo hall. 1.30 pmThe question that I hope the Minister can answer is: what consideration has been given to the possibility of that bingo operator, or any other operator, taking legal recourse for compensation for the loss of revenue if its licence is suspended, revoked, or amended in some way in cognisance of the disorder in an area for which it is not responsible and over which it has no authority? What consideration has been given to compensation being sought by suppliers, not least the Scottish whisky industry, whose revenues might also go down as a result of licences being revoked, suspended or amended within licensed premises near trouble in areas for which they are not responsible and over which they have no authority? It is a serious point about which many hon. Members have received representations. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): It is an honour to follow the hon. Gentleman, because I am trying to tease out his party’s thinking. There has been a great deal of discussion about alcohol orders and the role played by local businesses, such as supermarkets, so I took the liberty during the lunch break of finding out the views of other parties. I have made reference to the Scottish Parliament, and although we do not have a lot of influence over what it does, I am assured by the Minister that, in drafting the Bill this Parliament consulted extensively
The question has then to be asked: if it is not just the SNP that supports that position, but also the Liberals and Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament, is it just Scottish supermarkets that are irresponsible when it comes to selling alcohol? Hazel Blears: I am more than happy to go into a little detail about the kind of things that might be in the action plan if that would assist the Committee. I circulated annex B with my letter last week. That set out the kind of things that could be in an action plan, such as additional high-visibility policing, and the application of the industry principles and standards document—that is the code of practice that I have mentioned before, which covers “no ID no sale”, irresponsible promotions and a dispersal policy. I was interested to hear from some nightclub operators that if, at the end of the evening, they play certain kinds of music and put the lights up gradually, they find that people who have been in an absolute frenzy half an hour previously gently chill out and calm down. [Interruption.] It is true. If one plays gentle music and gradually turns the lights up, people who would otherwise be completely frenzied when they come out on to the streets are calmer and more chilled out, and do not get into fights over the girls they are not going home with—a cause of much fighting. Some responsible night club operators try through their lighting and music to ensure that people do not get in such a state. Another interesting thing that I have seen in Manchester, which has a good programme, is coffee bars being open at 3, 4 or 5 o’clock in the morning. People waiting for their parents to collect them or waiting for an all-night bus can have a cup of coffee and perhaps sober up a little before dad arrives; they are in a better state to be taken home. That, too, is an enormous help. Toughened drinking glasses will help solve the problem of people cutting each other’s faces with broken glasses. We also have licensing enforcement. The pubwatch scheme is linked to radio pagers so that pubs can alert each other if trouble is brewing; and people can be excluded. CCTV is being installed. Taxi marshals, whom I have seen at work in Manchester and Cardiff, marshal the queues. Another big flash-point for violence can be people trying to jump the taxi queue at 2 am, so having fairly large, burly and sober people can make a big difference. Column Number: 154 Additional street cleaning services are often necessary. Manchester has been employing bus loaders—large people in uniform who see people onto the all-night buses. For the first time, the all-night buses in Manchester are profitable, because youngsters now want to use them. That is a win for everyone. The council does not have to pay extra; the service is funded by the bus companies. We want to ensure that the things that are charged for are to some extent linked to what people get. There will be extra enforcement work, with frequent visits to premises, and trading standards will run test purchasing operations with under-age youngsters being sent in. Environmental health visits can help deal with excessive noise, which is another big problem. CCTV can be installed outside licensed premises, and cleaning the streets directly outside licensed premises in the zone, perhaps where people have had unfortunate incidents and left appalling messes on the pavements, could also be charged for. All that can be done through voluntary arrangements. We want to encourage people to enter into business improvement districts, as they have done in Birmingham and other places. Arrangements that make town centres more attractive places to be can be arranged voluntarily. I would much rather have that than see such places end up as part of an alcohol disorder zone. Mr. Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): The Minister mentioned a number of roles. Given my stature, I would have a greater chance of becoming a bus loader than the Minister. Her list describes what I would call administrative actions that could help make things nicer after the problem has arisen. Which of the activities in that list will reduce the amount that people drink? Hazel Blears: Additional high-visibility policing and the use of fixed penalty notices early in the evening are two. Lancashire has been using fixed penalty notices. During its alcohol campaign, the police tactic was to go out in the early evening when they saw that people were starting to get drunk, and issue fixed penalty notices. It worked so well that serious violence fell by 7 per cent. Low level violence increased, but because they were catching more people the number of more serious assaults decreased. They were nipping the problem in the bud; people were not getting to the point when they were so drunk that they indulged in horrendous violence. Environmental health visits to premises, with subsequent prosecution, and the increased fines available under the Licensing Act 2003 ought to start changing behaviour, with licensees not selling to under-age youngsters. Taxi marshalling is coping with the problem rather than preventing it, but enforcement can lead to prevention. If enforcement is good, people will think twice about doing the same thing on the next Friday night. Getting a fixed penalty notice of £80 each time ought to be a disincentive for such behaviour. Column Number: 155 I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green that local authorities should not be able simply to pass the burden on to everyone else. Clause 13(6) states that
and
There is a clear line of responsibility, but I entirely take the point that for the plan to be effective it must be about working in partnership. The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) raised the issue of compensation. It is unlikely that any compensation claims should succeed, and there will be no general right to compensation. There could be similar issues with drinking in public places orders: if we say that people may not drink in public in certain parts of town, people whose products are not consumed as often as they were could have a theoretical general right to compensation, but that has not happened and I do not envisage it happening. Stewart Hosie: My point is specifically about a company, business or club that is in a designated zone because of trouble in an area that they clearly have no responsibility for or authority over. The non-drinking zones in Dundee city centre, which are byelaws, work perfectly reasonably in the whole of the city centre because they are for the common good. Is the Minister certain that claims for compensation could not arise in the specific circumstances I describe? Hazel Blears: That is the advice that I have received. There is to be collective responsibility; we have gone over that ground several times. The advice is apparently from counsel, so we are fairly satisfied on that point. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire, North (Jim Sheridan) raised some important points. We are faced with the problems across the UK, so it is important that we deal with them. I hope that I have reassured hon. Members with my remarks about what could be in the action plan. It was useful to have the opportunity to set that out. Question put and agreed to. Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 14 Procedure for designation of zones Lynne Featherstone: I beg to move amendment No. 142, in clause 14, page 13, line 3, leave out subsection (3). The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 167, in clause 14, page 13, line 4, after ‘varied’, insert
No. 144, in clause 14, page 13, line 20, at end insert— Column Number: 156
No. 143, in clause 14, page 13, line 21, leave out subsection (6). No. 168, in clause 14, page 13, line 26, leave out ‘publicise’ and insert ‘communicate’. 1.45 pmLynne Featherstone: With amendment No. 142, we propose to remove subsection (3) of the clause, which allows a local authority to vary or extend an alcohol disorder zone. The measure means that premises might find themselves in a zone for which they have had no opportunity to join in the improvement or form part of the action plan, which they would have had if they had been in the original zone. It goes against the principles of natural justice that a zone might be extended to include an establishment that does not then have rights to make proposals for reformation and on how to improve its character and behaviour. Theoretically, a local authority could extend a zone to the edge of town. There are no limitations on that. It seems patently unfair that establishments included in that way should not have the same rights as those in the original zone. Amendment No. 144 is a probing amendment to find out how the Government intend to ensure that areas are not condemned to being alcohol disorder zones for the rest of their natural lives, albeit that a review is mentioned and the Minister has gone some way towards explaining what the content might be. The amendment would effectively introduce a sunset clause. If ADZs are a last resort to combat alcohol-related nuisance, they should have a set life span, otherwise a local authority that is troubled with such disorder might have little incentive to lift the designation of such a zone. The compulsory charging stage of an ADZ should not be seen as an ongoing revenue source for subsidising the police and the local authority. Local businesses are genuinely concerned that that might be a perverse incentive. Despite the review process, it might benefit a local authority not to find in favour of terminating an alcohol disorder zone even though the situation is under control and things are working well. What provisions are there to compel local authorities to end an alcohol disorder zone? Mr. Clappison: Amendment No. 144 caught my eye. I asked the Minister in a brief intervention how the Government proposed to judge the success or otherwise of the various measures relating to alcohol disorder zones. The amendment, which the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green described as a sunset clause, as it automatically brings the alcohol disorder zone to an end after 12 months, returns me to that line of thinking. It is all very well for us to pass all this legislation to create all these orders, new instruments, and new charges on businesses but, at the end of the day, we
Hazel Blears: I understand where hon. Members are coming from and I accept that their amendments are designed to probe the Government’s intentions to ensure that there are sufficient checks on the actions of local authorities and the police, and to ensure that there is full and proper consultation about what happens. The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green said that the variation in clause 14(3) meant that premises to which the zone was extended would not have the opportunity to go through the proposal and the designation, so would not have the opportunity to get their house in order. If she reads clause 14(3) carefully, she will see that it says:
That means that it must make a proposal in accordance with the original procedure in clause 13, so premises to which it would be extended would have exactly the same opportunity as others to make their representations and be included in the plan. The phrase
is sufficient to give the hon. Lady what she wants, which is for people to have a genuine chance to change their ways and get their house in order. I hope that that deals with her point. It is important that the local authority has a power to make a variation, because there may well be unforeseen displacement of activity. If an alcohol disorder zone is drawn in one place, problems might emerge elsewhere. It is therefore right to give local authorities the flexibility to vary the zone, subject to consultation. Amendment No. 167 would introduce a reasonableness test. I have dealt with that issue before and I understand the hon. Gentleman’s reason for tabling the amendment. The Liberal Democrat amendment No. 143 would remove the power for us to make regulations. Again, that is not appropriate, as it would reduce the flexibility of the police and local authorities to attack these very real problems. We are as confident as we can be that the procedures that we are introducing are the
Amendment No. 144 would require automatic termination of the designation a year after the beginning of compulsory charging. I know what the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green wants to achieve; a year is a long time, and possibly only a handful of alcohol disorder zones will still be in existence 12 months on. The very reason for including a review after three months—which is very early in legislative terms—is to ensure a constant focus on the area, rather than allowing the designation to run and run. I do not want to accommodate the appalling behaviour that the provisions are intended to deal with. We must prevent it and return the areas in question to the decent people who are in the majority. The hon. Member for Hertsmere has asked me before what success will look like. Success will be when decent people can go into the town centre for a meal, to visit the theatre or to have a drink in a pub without facing a rampaging mob of 30 to 50 people who are completely out of control. Unfortunately, many people of perhaps similar ages to members of the Committee are now reluctant to go to city centres. A few weeks ago I went to a matinee performance at the theatre. I should not feel forced to go to a matinee because I am reluctant to be in the city centre at 9 or 10 o’clock in the evening. A matinee might be quite nice, but I should like to feel able to go in the evening without fear of being surrounded by people whose behaviour is out of control. That would be one sign of success; so would a reduction in the incidence of low-level violence. Figures for recorded crime might go up, because police were catching more of it, but there would be a sense that our town and city centres were under control and that people could have a relaxed night out and enjoy themselves without the possibility of encountering antisocial behaviour. |
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