Mrs.
Gillan: I have listened to the Minister’s thinking.
I am not sure that there is a right or wrong answer. The point made by
the hon. Gentleman who speaks for Plaid Cymru, the hon. Member for
Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr, is correct. We are in danger of messing
up at the other end of the scale. We have so many different ages for
qualifying for rights and responsibilities at the lower end—16
as the age of consent, 18 for voting—and we are starting to get
that at the other end of life. We should be moving in the direction of
equality in the retirement age for women and men. However, I accept the
arguments. There is no wrong or right answer. I beg to ask leave to
withdraw the
amendment. Amendment,
by leave,
withdrawn. Clause
24 ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Clauses
25 to 29 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
30Short
title
Nick
Ainger: I beg to move amendment No. 17, in clause 30, page
17, line 6, leave out subsection
(2). The amendment
will remove the privilege amendment made in another place. As the
Committee is aware, the standard formula is incorporated into the Bill
before leaving the other place to avoid the formal infringement of the
Commons’ financial privileges. Removing the privilege amendment
and thereby reinstating the financial provisions in the Bill is a
purely technical and formal process, so I hope that the Committee will
accept the
amendment. Amendment
agreed
to. Clause 30,
as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
New
Clause
1Act
to cease to have effect in specified
circumstances ‘This Act shall
cease to have effect
if— (a) the Assembly so
resolves, or
(b) the Auditor General for Wales lays before the
Assembly under paragraph 13(4) of Schedule 1 a report to the effect
that the Commissioner hasfailed to use his resources
efficiently or effectively.'. —[Mrs.
Gillan.] Brought
up, and read the First
time.
Mrs.
Gillan: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second
time. New clause 1 is
purely inspired by the so-called bonfire of the quangos, which has not
escaped the notice of many people in Wales. It has caused some
controversy, and in the new clause I seek to put the Assembly firmly
back in the driving seat so that if at any stage it wished upon itself
the demise of the commissioner’s office it would be able to
effect it. It may be, for example, that the Government in their wisdom
want to appoint a commissioner for England and Wales jointly because it
has proved such an excellent idea in Wales. In that case, the Bill
would need to be removed from the statute book and a new Bill perhaps
introduced. Or the Auditor General, using his powers under paragraph 13
of schedule 1, might carry out an examination and report that resources
have not been used efficiently or effectively. The new clause would
give the Assembly a sanction against the organisation in that
eventuality. The new
clause would put the Assembly back in control. I do not mind if the
Minister thinks it is not fit for purpose and wishes to table his own
amendment on Report to ensure that the Assembly has the power to set
light to this particular quango without too much controversy if it so
wishes.
Nick
Ainger: While I appreciate the point that the hon. Lady
has made, the effect of the new clause is pretty draconian to say the
least. It would result in the Act ceasing to have effect if the
Assembly so resolved or if the Auditor General produced a report
concluding that the commissioner
had “failed to use his
resources efficiently or
effectively.” Should the
Assembly conclude that for some reason there was no longer a need for
the commissioner—the hon. Lady suggested the example of a merger
and a UK-wide commissioner—it would be able to relieve the
commissioner of office, simply fail to reappoint him or seek to secure
the repeal of the supporting legislation. If an incumbent
commissioner’s contract still had time left to run, there is a
provision in paragraph 3(3) of schedule 1 for arrangements to be made
for any necessary early severance payment to be
made. If the hon. Lady
is concerned about financial mismanagement or misconduct by the
commissioner, I tell her that the Assembly takes the view that in such
circumstances it should be able to relieve him of office. As noted in
its statement of policy intentions, it is intended that regulations
will include the power to do so on the grounds of
misbehaviour. The
second part of the new clause deals with the impact of an unfavourable
audit report from the Auditor General. It seems a somewhat draconian
response to provide that the Act shall automatically and immediately
cease to have effect if the commissioner is judged by the Auditor
General to have failed in any respect, however minor, to use his
resources efficiently or effectively. There are safeguards built into
the Bill to enable the Assembly to ensure that taxpayers’ money
is used effectively by the commissioner. There is a requirement of
audit in paragraph 12 of schedule 1 and provisions for examinations
into the use of resources in paragraph 13. Before public money is
committed at all, the Assembly Government will set the
commissioner’s level of funding by negotiation with him on the
basis of a forward work programme. The proposed allocation will be
subject to the approval of the
Assembly. The Assembly
Government have made clear in paragraph 69 their statement of policy
intentions that they intend to require the commissioner, by regulation,
to make an annual report to the Assembly giving an account of his
actions in the discharge of his functions over the previous financial
year and a summary of his proposed work programme for the current and
next financial year. Following the custom and practice in the case of
the Children’s Commissioner, the Assembly would hold a debate on
the report, which would provide an opportunity to give a view on the
value for money that the commissioner has given the public. That would
in turn inform discussions about the appropriate level of funding for
his planned future activities. I therefore ask the hon. Lady to
withdraw the
motion.
Mrs.
Gillan: I have listened to the Minister, and I am sad to
hear that he does not want to put the Assembly firmly in control.
However, on this occasion I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
motion. Motion and
clause, by leave,
withdrawn.
New
Clause
2Care
Standards Inspectorate for
Wales 'The
Commissioner shall not exercise any of the powers conferred upon him in
circumstances where to do so would conflict with the functions of the
Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales.'.—[Mrs.
Gillan.] Brought
up, and read the First
time.
Mrs.
Gillan: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second
time. The swansong of
new clauses is a very simple one tabled to reassure several people who
have made representations to me about their concern that there might be
a duplication and overlap of functions, particularly with the Care
Standards Inspectorate for Wales. I tabled the new clause so that the
Minister could have the opportunity in Committee to set people’s
minds at rest, because he too will know about those concerns. I hope
that the new clause is a suitable vehicle to enable us to hear from him
how the new commissioner will avoid conflict with the
CSIW.
Nick
Ainger: I am grateful for the opportunity to set the
record straight on the concern that some individuals and organisations
have had about the possible duplication of roles between the
commissioner and the CSIW. However, can tell the hon. Lady that the new
clause is not necessary. The remits of the
commissioner and the CSIW are quite different and there is no likelihood
of the two offices tripping over each in seeking to safeguard older
people. The
CSIW’s main focus is on registration and inspection of the care
sector in Wales. It enforces the Care Standards Act along with its
associated regulations and national minimum standards in Wales. It
deals with complaints that arise from the operation of those
arrangements. Broadly
speaking, the commissioners remit in that area is to check that the
CSIW is doing its job properly in relation to older people. He will not
have statutory powers to inspect or bring civil or criminal proceeding
against service providers. The commissioner’s role is more
strategic. For example, the Assembly’s intention, as with the
Children’s Commissioner, is that the commissioner should use his
powers to focus on cases that raise a question of principle, or that
have more general application or relevance to the rights or welfare of
older people. That
proposed approach was set out in paragraph 33 of the statement of
policy intention. Crucially, the commissioner will be required to take
into account whether the issues involved in the case have been, or are
being, formally considered by other persons, and if they have not, or
are not, whether they are more suitable for consideration by
others. Finally, where
the case is the subject of legal proceedings, clause 21 will apply to
restrict the commissioner’s powers in relation to proceedings. I
know that this is a probing new clause, and I hope that I have set out
the different
roles.
Mrs.
Moon: Does the Minister agree that the chances of the
commissioner having a conflict of interest with the CSIW would be the
equivalent of the Children’s Commissioner having a conflict of
interest with the CSIW given that it has a major role to play in the
regulation of children’s services? That conflict has not arisen,
so it seems highly unlikely that it would arise in the case before
us.
Nick
Ainger: Absolutely. My hon. Friend again makes an
excellent point, based on her experience. As far as I am aware, there
has not been any conflict between the Children’s Commissioner
and the CSIW and I would not expect it to happen with the commissioner
for older people. With those words I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the
motion.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am most grateful to the Minister. As he knows, I
was reflecting representations that had been made by, for example, the
city county of Swansea, where there was fear that there could be a
duplication of functions. I am glad that I have been able to do them
the service of not pre-judging the issue myself and uttering words of
wisdom from the Opposition Benches, and allowed him to put his comments
on the record. I am therefore grateful, and I beg to ask leave to
withdraw the motion.
Motion and clause, by leave,
withdrawn. 5.30
pm
Nick
Ainger: On a point of order, Mr. Williams. Before you
conclude our proceedings, I should like to
thank you for your stewardship of our proceedings, and to ask that you
pass on our thanks to Mrs. Dean as well. The day has been an
interesting one and we have had contributions from all sides of the
Committee. As is our normal custom, I also thank all the officials,
Doorkeepers, police and other people who have served us so well in the
past few hours. I should like to say to the hon. Member for Chesham and
Amersham and to other Committee members that I think it has been useful
to tease out some issues on this important legislation for Wales.
Although we have not agreed on everything, we have done ourselves and
the people of Wales a great service in properly scrutinising the
Bill.
Mrs.
Gillan: Further to that point of order, Mr.
Williams, I associate myself entirely with the Minister’s
remarks. I thank everybody who has been involved in the Committee Room
in the process of scrutiny of the Bill. Sadly, following the passage of
the Government of Wales Bill, this Bill will be one of the last of its
nature to be scrutinised in such depth in this place. Nevertheless, I
wish this piece of legislation well. When it started in the other
place—more than a year ago now, in effect—there
was little opposition from my side of the House, but there was a genuine
desire to examine it in detail, and I think we have had ample
opportunity to do that. It is rare that we manage to finish
scrutinising a piece of legislation in good order and in good time,
because the Government are usually quite curmudgeonly about time. The
Minister’s generosity in allowing us sufficient time on this
occasion and in enabling us not to have to consider the Bill on another
day could not have anything to do with an election in Blaenau Gwent,
could it? No, that would make me far too
cynical. I thank my
hon. Friends on this side of the Committee for supporting me and I
thank the hon. Members who spoke for the Liberal Democrats and for
Plaid Cymru. It has been a pleasure working with both of
them.
The
Chairman: I thank hon. Members for an interesting first
experience in Standing Committee.
Bill, as amended, to be
reported. Committee
rose at twenty-seven minutes to Six
o’clock.
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