Nick
Ainger: To help the hon. Lady, let me say that the letters
were available in the House of Lords in mid-October for the Grand
Committee. They became available in the House of Commons Library on 14
June.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am most grateful to the Minister. I am not quite
sure what today’s date is—I think that it is 27
June—but I had already prepared the paperwork for this Committee
and did not expect letters suddenly to be produced in the House of
Commons Library. Obviously, that is my mistake, and I probably could
have gone down every day to ask whether another set of letters had come
from the Welsh Office, but—silly me!—I do not go there
every day. However, it would be nice if Members who speak for the
Opposition were informed when letters are placed in the
Library,
particularly given that there is no opposition to the Bill and that we
are genuinely trying to have an interesting and decent debate about the
detail. I am grateful
to the Minister for that information, and it is with regret that I
shall have to force a Division to show the strength of feeling among
Opposition Members at the fact that the commissioner has only half a
role and that the Government have not completed the exercise, but left
it to a closing exchange of letters between members of the same party.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: No.
12, in clause 2, page 1, line 16, leave out subsection
(2).—[Mrs.
Gillan.] Question
put, That the amendment be
made:— The
Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes
9.
Division
No.
1] Davies,
David T.C.
(Monmouth)Question
accordingly negatived.
12.15
pm
Adam
Price: I beg to move amendment No. 36, in clause 2, page
1, line 19, at end add—
‘(4) The Assembly must consider any
representations received from the Commissioner and respond to the
Commissioner and where the Assembly considers it appropriate to take
action it shall consult the Commissioner on any action that is to be
taken.'. On
this amendment we shall briefly be revisiting some of the ground just
covered. The amendment places a duty on the Assembly to respond to
representations received from the commissioner whereas, as we heard in
the preceding discussion, the current draft of the Bill imposes no such
duty—particularly in relation to clause 2(3) on non-devolved
areas. I should be interested to hear the Minister’s comments,
but as far as devolved functions are concerned the procedure for
response will presumably be similar to that which pertains to the
Children’s Commissioner. That is, the Assembly—like any
other public body—will have a prescribed duty to respond within
a certain period. My amendment seeks to impose a guaranteed duty to
respond in relation to non-devolved areas. We need to know that, when
the commissioner avails himself of the right to make representations in
non-devolved areas, those representations will be passed on to the
relevant UK Minister or Government
body. I, too, just
received a set of letters. The note that is attached to them is being
helpfully dangled in front of me by the hon. Member for Ceredigion. It
goes into
some detail on the memorandum of understanding and on the precise issue
of what will happen when the commissioner makes a representation on a
non-devolved area. As I recall, it discusses a range of options that
would be prescribed in an explicit Assembly response, including, I note
with interest, doing nothing at all. That is quite often the response
of the Assembly
Government. The
essential problem is that a memorandum of understanding, a commitment
and a friendly, courteous exchange of letters between Brian and the
Parliamentary Under-Secretary—it is all first name terms in the
Assembly—is all well and good, but it is no substitute for a
statutory duty to respond. Ministers and Governments come and go, but
people want transparency, automaticity and a guarantee of a
constitutional duty on the Assembly Government to pass on
comments—even if the Assembly Government do not agree with those
comments—in order to make sure that the UK Government have an
opportunity to consider them in due
course. The
Parkinson’s Disease Society, Age Concern Cymru, Mind Cymru and a
host of consultees agreed with the proposal that non-devolved matters
should have some automaticity.
The previous
Parliamentary Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig),
spoke in the Welsh Affairs Committee about the scenario of the older
people’s commissioner passing on representations in non-devolved
matters: “He or
she would make representations to the Assembly and the Assembly would
make a judgment whether it felt that it needed to take these matters up
with the respective department here in
London.” That is simply
not good enough. It is not up to the Assembly to consider whether the
statutory commissioner’s views should be passed on. If the
commissioner has statutory powers, he should at least have the
automatic right to convey his representations to the relevant
Minister.
Nick
Ainger: Amendment No. 36 seeks to ensure that the Assembly
considers and responds to the commissioner’s representations.
The Assembly would also have to consult the commissioner before taking
any action as a consequence of one of his representations.
The Government do not believe
that the amendment is necessary. Paragraph 69 of the Assembly
Government’s statement of policy intentions—I hope that
we have the right version, which is relevant to my point—sets
out their intention to require by regulation that the
commissioner’s periodic reports shall contain a summary of any
representations that he might have made to the Assembly during the
reporting year. That will be the commissioner’s opportunity to
place on the public record his views on any perceived deficiencies in
the Assembly Government’s handling of those
representations. In
the case of the Children’s Commissioner, an annual Assembly
debate takes place on both his annual report and the Assembly
Government’s response. It is intended that the same procedure
will be followed for the older people’s commissioner. That will
be the opportunity for Assembly Members to hold the Assembly Government
accountable for their handling of any representations made.
The
hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr referred to the need for
clarity on how the Assembly will respond to the commissioner’s
representations and said that concerns had been expressed by a number
of interested bodies. The Assembly Government intend that operational
arrangements between them and the commissioner for older people in
Wales will be governed by a memorandum of understanding. The memorandum
will cover matters such as the submission of the commissioner’s
estimate for the next financial year, the frequency and method of
Assembly payments and so on.
As part of the process of
establishing that memorandum of understanding, the Assembly Government
intend to agree with the commissioner a procedure for making and
considering his or her formal representations. The procedure will
respect the commissioner’s independence and powers to examine
relevant matters, including instances in which such representations
deal with matters that are of concern to older people in Wales but for
which responsibility has not been devolved to the National Assembly and
remains with the UK Government.
The aim of the procedure will be
to guarantee that the commissioner’s views and findings are
considered carefully and openly by the Assembly and the Assembly
Government. It is envisaged that it will include specified options for
actions that the Assembly Government would consider taking in response
to a representation from the commissioner. Such options might include
referring the matter to a Cabinet sub-committee on older people based
here in London, asking the national partnership forum for older people
for advice or recommendations or raising the matter formally with Wales
Office Ministers in accordance with section 33 of the Government of
Wales Act 1998. The Assembly Government will also have the option to
determine that it will not take any further action in response to a
particular
representation. The
procedure will include specified time limits for the Assembly
Government to consider a representation and make a response to the
commissioner. Unless the nature of the content of a representation
dictates otherwise, we expect the process to be as open as possible to
public scrutiny. With those comments I have set out how the Assembly
Government intend to deal with representations on both devolved and
non-devolved issues.
As I said earlier, if the
commissioner remains dissatisfied with the response, or perhaps the
lack of it, from the Assembly Government to a representation that he
has made, he will be able to draw particular attention to it in his
annual report, which will be debated in the Assembly. Again, there are
substantial checks and balances to ensure that representations are
taken seriously and that action is taken if required. On that basis, I
ask the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr to withdraw the
amendment. Huw
Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On a point of order, Mrs.
Dean. It may be helpful if I make the Committee aware that during the
Minister’s comments copies of the procedure for representations
that has just been discussed were handed
out.
Mrs.
Gillan: Further to that point of order, Mrs.
Dean. While we are discussing the documentation that accompanies the
Bill, I add that I have been examining the document entitled
“Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill: Statement of Policy
Intentions for Subordinate Legislation”, which was laid out in
the room today for Committee members. Another document of exactly the
same name was made available to me and my office through the Vote
Office. They are not entirely different but they are different
documents, they are undated and there is no identification. The
pagination and the paragraphs are different. As the document is a
substantial part of the way in which we can scrutinise the Bill, I
should like to inquire through you, Mrs. Dean, why we have not been
given just one, dated document that can be identified clearly. I am
willing to show you the
document.
The
Chairman: What is in the document is not a matter for the
Chair.
Adam
Price: I am grateful to the Minister for circulating a
copy of the note on the Government’s intentions. The road to
hell is paved with notes on good intentions, but the note sets out
clearly the Government’s thinking as of October last year. Will
the Minister inform us outside the Committee whether there has been any
development of that thinking in the
Assembly? I am not
entirely satisfied by the Minister’s argument. I have scanned
the note and I see that one of the options is to raise the matter
formally with Wales Office Ministers. Presumably that would not
preclude the Assembly from raising it with Ministers in other
Departments and the Wales Office is simply a conduit for subsequent
conversations.
Nick
Ainger indicated
assent.
Adam
Price: The Minister indicates his
assent. I am not
satisfied; it would be far clearer if the duty to respond were placed
in the Bill, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
amendment. Amendment,
by leave,
withdrawn. Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill. Nia
Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I very much welcome the
proactive role that the clause sets out for the commissioner. It is
easy for us to acknowledge the needs and concerns of older people in
Wales, but the clause specifies that the commissioner’s role
will go further and that he will promote and safeguard their interests.
Matters such as prejudice and discrimination can be complex, and while
it can be easy to recognise direct discrimination there can always be
indirect discrimination through factors that make it more difficult for
an older person to participate in activities or benefit from
opportunities than it is for a younger person. The commissioner will
have the role of actively promoting opportunities for older people and
of driving forward the elimination of discrimination in a wide range of
areas such as leisure, health and social
services.
12.30
pm It is important
that that proactive role is recognised. The commissioner must not be
seen just as a glorified ombudsman. He will have the role of
encouraging best practice in public bodies and services in
Wales. We all know
that life expectancy is increasing. Today, and not for the first time
since I was elected, I had the pleasure of sending 100th birthday
greetings to one of my constituents—this time to Mrs. Phillips
from Golwg y Mynydd. We know that needs will increase with life
expectancy and encouraging best practice will involve planning for
that. That is important because we all know that when services are
under pressure best practice is sometimes forgotten. That is why it is
important to have a commissioner looking at services from the point of
the view of older
people.
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