Mrs.
Gillan: Or one man and one
woman.
Nick
Ainger: Vice versa, all women or whatever.
In the legislation to establish
the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, it was a requirement that
a deputy be appointed. A deputy, Maria Battle, has been appointed, but
in addition to her, other assistants have been appointed to a similar
level of responsibility. In effect, there are a number of deputies
within the office of the Children’s Commissioner, while only one
is designated deputy Children’s Commissioner. The legislation
before us follows closely the legislation that established the
Children’s Commissioner. It seems to be working well, and I see
no reason why we should accept amendment No. 5.
The hon. Lady suggested that the
Government are trying to micro-manage the issue. With respect, that is
exactly what amendment No. 16 would do by limiting the number of staff
that the commissioner for older people can appoint. It would prevent
the commissioner appointing more than 30 staff unless he sought the
approval of the Assembly. That would be unreasonable. The
Children’s Commissioner employs about 30 staff; the Assembly
thinks that the commissioner for older people will need a similar
number, given that the size of the relevant client groups is similar.
The commissioner may need more or less staff, and they should be free
to decide in light of their work objectives.
In any event, the commissioner
will be able to employ only such staff as are affordable within the
commissioner’s overall budget, which will itself be agreed
annually with the Welsh Assembly Government. For each financial year,
the commissioner will be
required to prepare an estimate of the income and expense of his office,
and that will be laid before the Assembly. The commissioner will also
be required to submit accounts to the Auditor General for Wales, who
may examine the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which the
commissioner has used their resources to discharge their
functions. Those
measures will provide sufficient scrutiny of the commissioner’s
use of resources, including staffing costs, and they will ensure that
resources are not wasted on unnecessary staff at the expense of older
people in Wales. I therefore ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the
amendment.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am grateful to the Minister for his remarks. I
still feel that the Bill’s compulsion to appoint just one deputy
commissioner is unnecessary; it should have been permissive. If there
were any danger signals that the quango was becoming overblown, which
has been one criticism of other quangos, a limit on the number of staff
and a report to the Assembly would have provided for a check and a
balance. Having listened to the Minister’s explanation, however,
I should once again explain that the amendments were probing amendments
to enable us to ask questions and probe deeper into the
Government’s mind on this piece of legislation.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw
the amendment.
Amendment, by leave,
withdrawn.
Question proposed, That
this schedule be the First schedule to the
Bill. 11.15
am
Mrs.
Gillan: Will the Minister set out the anticipated time
frame for the appointment? When does he expect the commissioner to be
in place? When will the selection process and the advertising of the
post according to the public appointment rules in Wales take place? In
particular, has any preliminary work been carried out on the location
of offices for the commissioner and his or her staff, and has
consideration been given to the possibility of taking advantage of the
network of offices already set up by the operation of the
Children’s Commissioner for Wales? It seems to me that there
would be a great deal of synergy between the operations of the two
commissioners: indeed, the Minister, and all others who have examined
the future role of the commissioner, have suggested such a synergy. So
I hope that some consideration has already been given to using the same
offices and perhaps some of the same systems, thereby saving the
taxpayer money. Before we agree to schedule 1, I should be interested
to hear the Minister’s comments on
that.
Nick
Ainger: As to when the commissioner will be appointed, the
Bill must of course first be passed, and then the regulations must be
taken through the Assembly. We hope that it will be in 2007 that the
Assembly will appoint the commissioner; I cannot give any more detail
than that.
Mrs.
Gillan: Would it be too cynical to speak of its happening
in time for the next Assembly elections?
Nick
Ainger: I genuinely cannot say whether it will be before
or after May 2007; but hopefully it will be
before. I understand
the hon. Lady’s point about the location of offices and the
synergy with the work of the Children’s Commissioner, but that
will be an operational issue. The commissioner will first need to
establish whether there is any room in any of the regional offices of
the Children’s Commissioner. No decision has been taken, and
given that no detailed work has been carried out on the best location
for the offices, it would be rather unfair for the Committee to try to
impose anything on a future commissioner. I can give the hon. Lady no
assurances, except to tell her that if there is synergy between the
work of the Children’s Commissioner and the older
people’s commissioner, the possibility that she raises will be
seriously examined, and any opportunities for collocation of regional
offices will be taken on
board. Question put
and agreed
to. Schedule 1
agreed
to. Clause
2General
functions
Mrs.
Gillan: I beg to move amendment No. 11, in clause 2, page
1, line 15, at end
insert— ‘(e) keep under
review the adequacy of retirement provision for older people in
Wales.'.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following amendments:
No. 18, in clause 2, page 1,
line 15, at end insert— ‘(e)
work towards the elimination of elder
abuse'. No.
12, in clause 2, page 1, line 16, leave out subsection
(2).
Mrs.
Gillan: We now move on to clause 2, which sets out the
general functions of the commissioner. Although this aspect of the
matter has been scrutinised to an enormous extent, for me the question
remains whether the commissioner has enough power to get to the heart
of the matter in relation to the issues and problems that face older
people.
The functions
of the commissioner set out in clause 2 are constricted,
being “exercisable only
in relation to fields in which the Assembly has
functions.” The
commissioner will not have the competence to consider the wider
situation affecting older people in Wales. That is why I
tabled amendments Nos. 11 and
12. Amendment No. 12
would remove subsection (2). I appreciate that that would be nonsense,
but the amendment is merely a vehicle to probe how the Minister
envisages the commissioner gaining some real say and representational
opportunities over, for example, pensions. Amendment No. 11 would set
in statute a duty on the commissioner to consider the adequacy of
retirement provision and pension arrangements for older
people.
The commissioner does not have
any locus in the Department for Work and Pensions or with regard to
benefits, including housing and council tax benefits. That is a lacuna.
In that area, the Department, as opposed to the Assembly, will
adversely affect pensioner poverty. I hope that the amendments provide
the Minister with an opportunity to set out how he envisages the job
succeeding, given that the commissioner is effectively cut off from the
parts of political and governmental life that cause some of the
greatest problems for the older community in
Wales.
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a privilege to serve
under your chairmanship, Mrs. Dean.
We have added our names to the
amendment moved by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham, and we
share a healthy frustration with this legislation. If it is to proceed,
and we want it to very much, the tools exist for it to do the job. We
heard about some of the practical tools that the commissioner will have
to do the job, but the amendments—specifically amendment No.
12—are concerned with the breadth of the commissioner’s
reach and the extent of his remit. That debate endured many hours in
another place and was mentioned on Second Reading, so—like the
hon. Lady—I shall not discuss it for long.
We are talking about issues that
have a profound effect on older people in Wales. Many range beyond the
remit of the National Assembly for Wales, and responsibility rests
here. Our concern is that subsection (2), which limits the
commissioner’s general functions, will seriously handicap him in
his attempts to fulfil his role as fully as possible. In particular,
subsection (1)(d) stipulates that the commissioner may
“keep under review the adequacy and
effectiveness of law affecting the interests of older people in
Wales.” Laws
relating to pensions and tax credits have an enormous effect on the
interests of older people in Wales, but as the Bill stands, the
commissioner’s role in such issues is limited. I do not hold out
much hope that the Minister will be positive towards the amendment, but
if it were agreed to, it would significantly broaden the
commissioner’s role. We strongly welcome the Bill, and we
strongly endorse its proposals; however, we must go forward if it is to
be meaningful.
On Second
Reading, the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham said that it seemed
strange that the Government were introducing the position as a
Wales-only role, given that the UK Government have an enormous role to
play and an enormous influence over the welfare of Welsh older people.
Perhaps it would have been wiser to have a UK-wide commissioner, or at
least to grant the Welsh commissioner more influence over non-devolved
matters, as the amendments would provide.
Amendment No.
18 stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for
Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik). We would include in the Bill as
one of the commissioner’s core functions, a responsibility to
work towards the elimination of elder abuse. The inaugural world elder
abuse awareness day is on 15 June. Help the Aged Wales is prominent in
that campaign, and I am sure that members of the Committee will praise
it and its awareness-raising agenda.
In 2004, the Health Committee
filed a report on elder abuse in which it acknowledged that it was
notoriously hard to estimate the scale and prevalence of elder abuse,
primarily
because “Much
abuse is not reported because many older people are unable, frightened
or embarrassed to report its
presence.” So the extent
of such abuse is difficult to quantify, but there is indeed a
problem. Abuse can take many
forms—sexual, financial, medical, physical or
psychological—and ruins the lives of many innocent and
vulnerable people. The
Health Committee went on to
say: “Often care
staff take no action because they lack training in identifying abuse or
are ignorant of the reporting procedures... The lack of training
in issues relating to elder abuse...is encountered in all the
settings in which abuse
occurs.” Crucially, it
concluded: “we strongly
endorse any measures that make available advocacy services for older
people.” I
strongly congratulate the Government on the establishment of an older
people’s commissioner. The commissioner will be in a unique
position to combat elder abuse. As an independent advocate for older
people, he will be able to provide excellent counsel for those in need
and guidance to service providers on how to recognise and deal with the
problem, and to issue strong recommendations to the Assembly on how to
tackle elder abuse at policy
level. I am sure that
many Members here agree with me that making the eradication of elder
abuse in Wales one of the commissioner’s core tasks would send a
clear message that our political leaders are alive to the severity of
the problem and are determined to stamp it out. On that basis, in
pursuing the amendment, I hope to see this important provision put into
the
Bill. Adam
Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): I rise not just
to give the two principal Front-Bench speakers some well-earned rest
but because I think that the amendment and some of those that follow it
go to the heart of the difficulty with the Bill. We all agree with the
principles behind it, but the crux of the disagreement among us is
devolution and how the Bill deals with it.
There is a fundamental
inconsistency in the way in which the Bill assigns powers to the
commissioner. Devolution was meant to make democratic accountability
easier, simpler and clearer. However, those of us who are proponents of
devolution and good governance generally should be alive to the danger.
Because of the at times complex nature of the settlement in Wales,
devolution can lead to greater confusion. Confusion leads to
frustration, and frustration leads to a sense of exasperation with
politics in general, although we shall not mention Blaenau Gwent in
these proceedings. The
commissioner will be able to make representations on anything relevant
to older people in Wales. I was corrected on the record by the
Minister, who said that the commissioner will have the power to
commission research in non-devolved matters, but they will not have the
power to produce a formal report. There lies the lacuna: the
commissioner will have the power to make representations but not the
power to
conduct a formal review or lay a formal report before the Assembly or
directly before
Westminster. There are
a number of problems, one of which is that there will no longer be any
practical formal mechanism for taking up representations on
non-devolved matters. During the passage of the Government of Wales Act
1998, there was a lot of talk about joint ministerial councils—a
kind of summit of the islands involving Ministers from the far-flung
reaches of the United Kingdom. Ministers for education, health and
devolved services from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and even the
Channel Islands and the Isle of Man would be invited to ministerial
jamborees to share best practice and so
on. 11.30
am It
seems to me that such joint ministerial councils have ceased to exist.
I am not aware that they meet now on a regular basis. Therefore, there
is no formal mechanism for such representations. Perhaps that is
because in Wales, Scotland and Westminster the same party is at the
helm—just lift the telephone and there are informal
representations—but without the formal mechanism, there is no
guarantee that those representations will be carried across. That is
one of the
problems. The second
problem is that the Bill flies in the face of what everyone in Wales is
saying. Where is the democratic devolution in the Bill? All the major
statements made have strongly supported the principle of giving the
commissioner the right to direct access to Westminster, or at
least the right to have representations passed on
automatically. There
were two major consultations on the proposal. One consultation was on
the advisory group’s report, and the second on the draft Bill.
In both instances the vast majority of consultees came out strongly in
favour of strengthening the commissioner’s role in non-devolved
areas. All the major stakeholder organisations in Wales came out in
favour of giving the older people’s commissioner those
strengthened powers: Help the Aged, Age Concern, Swansea Network
50-plus and, the Minister will be interested to hear, the
Carmarthenshire Pensioners Forum; I am sure that he took due note of
the constituency
interest.
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