 House of Commons |
Session 2005 - 06 Publications on the internet Standing Committee Debates Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [Lords] |
Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [Lords] | ||||
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Frank
Cranmer, Committee Clerk †
attended the Committee Standing Committee ATuesday 27 June 2006(Morning)[Mrs. Janet Dean in the Chair]Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [Lords]10.30
am
That—
(1)Â Â Â during
proceedings on the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill
[Lords] the Standing Committee shall (in addition to its first
meeting at 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday 27th June) meet—
(2)Â Â Â the
proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clause 1; Schedule
1; Clauses 2 and 3; Schedule 2; Clauses 4 to 6; Schedule 3;
Clauses 7 to 22; Schedule 4; Clauses 23 to 30; new Clauses; new
Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(3)Â Â Â the
proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a
conclusion at 4.00 p.m. on Thursday 29th
June. May I extend a
warm welcome to you, Mrs. Dean? I am sure that our deliberations will
not be too controversial, as the Bill has general support. I also
welcome all members of the Committee. As I explained on Second Reading,
the purpose of the Bill is to provide powers that will enable the
National Assembly for Wales to establish an independent champion for
older people. The post will be the first of its kind in the
UK—possibly in the world—and follows in the footsteps of
the post of Children’s Commissioner, which was another
successful first for
Wales. The idea of
having such a commissioner was among the recommendations made by the
advisory group on a strategy for older people in Wales in its report
entitled, “When I’m 64...and More”. The idea
was then translated into the firm commitment to establish a
commissioner which was made in the Welsh local manifesto in the 2003
assembly elections.
Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): May I add a
warm welcome to you, Mrs. Dean? I believe that this is the first time
that you have chaired a Standing Committee of this nature, and I am
sure that all members of the Committee are united in hoping that you
enjoy your chairmanship and in wishing you well. We hope that you go
from strength to strength, and we shall try not to give you too much
difficulty.
The Minister is right that the
Opposition have no problem with the resolution of the Programming
Sub-Committee. I should like, however, to offer the apologies of my
hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb), who is a
member of the Committee and who cannot attend today. He has been chosen
for a debate on police authority mergers in Westminster Hall, which
coincides with our sitting. I am sure that all of us in the Committee
would have liked the opportunity to speak on that subject and I am sad
that the timing of the Bill’s examination in Committee has
caused a problem for an Opposition Member, and possibly for others. I
wanted to put that on record so that anyone who reads the transcript of
our sitting will be able to note that, no matter how assiduous one is
as a parliamentarian—as is the case with my hon.
Friend—it is impossible to be in two places at
once. Having said that,
and bearing in mind your admonition, Mrs. Dean, to keep introductory
remarks on the Bill to stand part debate on clause 1, I have great
pleasure in acceding to the programme motion.
Question put and agreed
to.
The
Chairman: I remind the Committee that there is a money
resolution in connection with the Bill, of which copies are available
in the Room. I also remind Members that adequate notice of amendments
should be given. As a general rule, neither I nor my fellow Chairman
intend to call starred amendments, including starred amendments tabled
during an afternoon sitting of the
Committee.
Clause 1The
Commissioner for Older People in
Wales Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mrs.
Gillan: I move on to a general introduction to the Bill.
Clause 1 is the establishment clause that sets up the office of
Commissioner for Older People in Wales. The post will be established
once the Bill passes through Parliament. I commend the Government on
the amount of work that has already gone into bringing the Bill to this
stage and into establishing the position of
commissioner. We all
appreciate that the Bill has taken some time to reach consideration in
Committee. It started in another place many months ago and underwent
considerable scrutiny there, and we are grateful to all those who
participated in the debate. The consultation process on the Bill was
particularly interesting. I believe that the Government sent the draft
Bill to some 1,700 organisations, and that there were 98 responses, of
which 94 per cent. were in favour of establishing the Commissioner for
Older People in Wales. There was support for the proposals, although,
as with everything, the devil has been in the detail. If I am correct,
the Bill contains 11 powers, one duty to make subordinate legislation,
and two powers to issue directions—powers which will fall to the
Assembly.
I have some
general questions for the Minister on clause 1. Has any thought been
given to where the offices for the commissioner will be located, and
how
many offices there will be? Will they be only in south Wales—in
Cardiff—or will there be offices in north or west Wales or
elsewhere in the country? Also, as the legislation contains a Welsh
translation of the commissioner’s title, and given the very
nature of the constituents with whom the commissioner will be dealing,
what arrangements will be made for Braille, audio tapes and signing, so
that those skills will be available either through the commissioner
himself, or herself, or through members of staff? It would be helpful
if the Minister could set out the surrounding facts and figures,
particularly on how the office intends to communicate with its
constituents and on where it may be
located.
Nick
Ainger: The location of offices will be a matter for the
commissioner. Common practice, as with the public service ombudsman for
Wales, is that the office be based not in Cardiff—in that case
the HQ is in Bridgend. The Children’s Commissioner has regional
offices, however, so it would be possible to have a north Wales and
perhaps a west Wales regional office if the main office were based in
Cardiff.
The hon. Lady
raised an interesting point that the commissioner will be dealing with
people who may have disabilities, particularly sight and hearing
problems. All of the reports can be formatted, for example, in
Braille—that can be specified in the regulations—and I am
sure that the current practice of the Assembly would also be taken on
board in the regulations. I hope that that answers the hon.
Lady’s
points. It is also
worth explaining why the advisory committee believed that there was a
need for a commissioner in Wales to speak on people’s behalf and
to act as their champion. Twenty two per cent. of people in Wales are
aged 60 or over, compared with only 20 per cent. in England. In 20
years that will increase to 28 per cent. in Wales, compared with 25 per
cent. in England. Over the same period, the number of people in Wales
aged 85 or over will increase by more than a third, to more than
85,000. The establishment of the office of commissioner will be a
significant step forward in ensuring that older people in Wales are
heard and understood, that they are safe from harm and abuse, that they
receive the opportunities and services that they need and deserve, and
that they can play a full part in decisions that affect them. The role,
remit and powers of the commissioner will closely mirror those of the
Children’s Commissioner, an office which is a successful, tried
and tested model. Although the legislation is adapted to take account
of a different situation and of the complex needs of older people, it
has been based on that
model. As the hon. Lady
said, the establishment of the office of Commissioner for Older People
has been widely supported in Wales. The commissioner will have powers
to promote and safeguard the interests of older people in Wales. That
will provide the impetus for increased awareness of the needs of older
people and for raising standards in public services and support. I
commend the clause to the
Committee. Question
put and agreed
to. Clause 1
ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1The
Commissioner for Older People in
Wales
‘(2) Regulations
under sub-paragraph (1)(b) must provide that the Commissioner shall be
appointed for a term of four years and may be re-appointed for one
further term of four
years.'.
No. 7, in schedule 1, page 18,
line 16, at end insert— ‘(2)
Regulations under sub-paragraph (1)(b) relating to the circumstances in
which the Commissioner ceases to hold office or may be removed or
suspended from office must ensure that the Commissioner is able to
perform his duties
independently.'. No.
4, in schedule 1, page 18, line 28, leave out sub-paragraph
(3). No. 2, in schedule
1, page 19, line 26, leave out ‘may' and insert
‘shall'. No. 3,
in schedule 1, page 19, line 27, leave out ‘it thinks
appropriate' and insert ‘the
Secretary of State shall
direct'.
Mrs.
Gillan: I want to reassure the Minister that I do not
intend to make any lengthy speeches during examination of the Bill.
Rather, I shall use certain of my amendments to probe for details.
Those remarks apply directly to this group of amendments—I shall
use them as a vehicle, rather than pressing them to a
vote. Paragraph 2
allows the Assembly to make regulations setting out
arrangements “as to the
appointment of the
Commissioner” and on the
terms and conditions of his office, and the amendments flow from that
paragraph and from subsequent points that are made in the
schedule. The First
Minister will be responsible for appointing the commissioner, and my
first question is why the Minister arrived at that decision. Is there a
role for the Assembly to play a part in the commissioner’s
recruitment and appointment? Indeed, what process will be used to allow
the Assembly itself to participate in the selection process, and who
will be on the appointment panel? Is it envisaged that only members of
the Welsh Assembly Government will be involved in appointment, or will
members of the Opposition parties be able to play a part? How will the
Minister ensure that the selection process is conducted by a balanced
set of individuals? For example, will there be representatives of older
people on the selection panel and will there be representatives on the
panel of those who work with older
people? 10.45
am There was
discussion at several stages during the progress of the Bill on the
commissioner’s term of office of four years, renewable for a
further four years. Why has that term been left to regulations and why
has it not instead been included in the Bill? Hon. Members will correct
me if I am wrong, but I believe that there was a meeting of minds on
the term of office during the consultation process, so it seems to me
that it is an admirable candidate for inclusion in the Bill. Perhaps
the Minister can enlighten us on the thinkingabout
that.
I should like to know who can
remove the commissioner from office. Can only the First Minister do
that, and what is the process for removing a commissioner who has not
fulfilled the expected standards? I understand that there are proposals
for removing the commissioner if the commissioner is deemed to have
misbehaved, and I am hoping that the Minister will take the opportunity
to define
“misbehaviour”. I
would next like to probe a little further on the way in which the
commissioner will operate, and to ask how the commissioner will be able
to operate independently. If, as it would appear, the First Minister
appoints and also removes the commissioner, there should be due
process, including an appeal process for the commissioner, whereby the
commissioner can disagree with his dismissal. Will the Minister expand
on that? Amendment No.
4 probes the ex gratia payments that are allowed under schedule 1.
Paragraph 3(3) of that schedule
says: “If a
person ceases to be the commissioner and it appears to the Assembly
that there are special circumstances that make it right that the person
should receive compensation, the Assembly may pay to that person a sum
of such amount as it thinks
appropriate.” Will
the Minister enlighten us as to how that sum would be arrived at and
who would decide upon it? Does the provision really mean that the
Assembly would decide, or would it in effect be the First Minister who
would agree the sum? If there is wherewithal within the legislation for
an ex gratia payment of an unspecified amount to be made effectively on
a whim, or in “special circumstances”—I would like
the Minister to define that term—how can the commissioner
operate independently of the Government of the day in the Assembly?
Should there perhaps be a ceiling to the amount, and, if not, will the
Minister explain what would happen in the event of an employment
dispute between the commissioner and the Welsh Assembly
Government? Paragraph 7
of schedule 1 refers to “Payments by the Assembly.” Will
the Minister set out exactly what the paragraph means? The words
“as it thinks appropriate” are, again, very general.
Surely there is a need for safeguards in relation to an open-ended
financial opportunity whereby the commissioner and his office receive
unlimited sums for unspecified
purposes. The group of
amendments is large, but the questions are fairly straightforward and I
hope that the Minister will be able to
respond.
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