Work and Families Bill |
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Mr. Sutcliffe: I feel that I have been told off by the hon. Lady. However, she has the whole situation wrong. She does not understand how parliamentary procedure operates. If the Government had been operating out of order, Mr. Bayley, you would have stopped the discussions. It may be useful if I explain the process. The Committee must remember that the Government want change and want it to happen in a particular way. They are using all the better regulation aspects that they can in introducing legislation. The format that is followed is: first the Green Paper, then the White Paper, and then the Bill and the regulations that flow from it. When it is possible to put the draft regulations before hon. Members when they discuss matters in Committee, the Government try to do that. This morning’s example of the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for North Norfolk using probing amendments to persuade the Government to change their mind would be lost if the Government had said in Committee, “This is all that we will do. We will not change our view.” When we discuss clauses, we examine the objectives and the principles behind what we are trying to achieve and, through the regulatory process and SIs, apply those regulations by using the affirmative or the negative procedure. I shall come on to what we shall do under the Bill later. We try to stick to a consultation period of about 12 weeks, so that we can give stakeholders the opportunity to consider what the Government intend to do and then try to make sure that the regulations fit that intention. As we know, regulations can be changed without the need for further primary legislation, so it is useful to have regulations that flow from primary measures. That procedure works. As for the other place, it introduces Bills. It introduced the Company Law Reform Bill, which will come to us in the new year. It is not unusual for the other place to deal with issues that have not been dealt with in this place. 12.45 pmMrs. Laing: I hear what the Minister says. His explanation was clear. In that case, why did the Secretary of State say that he had a heroic ambition to bring the regulations before us in Committee? Mr. Sutcliffe: The Secretary of State is a hard taskmaster and is optimistic about what can be achieved within a framework. He has asked us to speed the process up as much as we can. The Bill is taking broad powers to provide eligible fathers with an additional period of paternity leave for a maximum of 26 weeks, some of which will be paid if certain criteria are met. At present in the Bill, for a
In addition, the child’s mother or adopter must have returned to work, have been entitled to statutory maternity pay, maternity allowance or statutory adoption pay, and have some of that entitlement remaining at the time of their return to work. As we have said, the detail will be provided in the accompanying regulations and we shall consult on the outstanding details of the policy early in the new year. As additional paternity leave and pay is a new concept, we want to ensure that we alleviate any concerns and deliver a straightforward scheme that minimises the burdens on business, while offering more choice and flexibility to parents and, ultimately, a scheme that works. We agree with hon. Members that the House should have the opportunity to consider the detail in the additional paternity leave and pay regulations. For that reason, we have made those provisions subject to the affirmative procedure. Paragraph 22 of schedule 1 amends section 176 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 to provide that regulations made under new sections 171ZEA to 171ZEE of that Act, relating to additional statutory paternity pay, are to be made by the affirmative procedure. That covers regulations made under the powers set out in clauses 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. Paragraph 43 amends section 236 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 to provide that regulations made under new sections 80AA and 80BB of that Act are to be made by the affirmative procedure. That covers regulations made under powers conferred by clauses 3 and 4 and also covers clause 5, although amendments to that clause have not been tabled. On clause 12, many hon. Members will know that legislation on flexible working was fully debated as part of the passage of the Employment Act 2002. At that time, it was agreed that the procedural requirements would be subject to the affirmative procedure, while the eligibility, complaints and remedies would be subject to negative procedure. In consequence of this Bill, we intend only to amend the eligibility regulations. It is therefore appropriate that such amendments should be made by negative procedure. I fully recognise the spirit behind the amendment and the Committee’s desire to discuss and help shape the regulations. Our record in developing the right to request flexible working, from the original taskforce to the recent work and families consultation, shows our commitment to full consultation and debate. We always consider the needs and views of all interested parties, whether they be unions, employers, employees, parents’ groups or carers’ groups. Of course, we welcome and encourage the views of Members of Parliament. The changes to the regulations will be subject to a full and extensive consultation, in which I hope everyone here will participate. I hope to publish the consultation early in the new year and we shall discuss
Norman Lamb: I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that the consultation will start in the new year. What is the time scale for completing that and for tabling the draft regulations? Mr. Sutcliffe: As I said, the consultation usually takes about 12 weeks; that is the recognised procedure that we try to adopt, and we shall try to meet that timetable. Then we shall need time to consider the consultation; we shall then bring forward the regulations. We could be talking about 16 or 17 weeks for the regulations to be applied. In light of my explanations about the need to have discussions, I hope that the hon. Member for North Norfolk feels that I have set out the position on the procedures that will be used and I ask him to withdraw his amendment. Norman Lamb: I am grateful to the Minister for clearing up the confusion caused on Second Reading, when we got different answers at different times from the Secretary of State and the Minister. Mr. Sutcliffe: May I point out that I did not answer when the hon. Gentleman asked me the question? Norman Lamb: It is good of the Minister to admit his failure to answer my question on Second Reading. None the less, we ended that debate in some confusion about the process. The Minister has cleared that up and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Mrs. Laing: Can the Minister confirm that the regulations will be put before the House using the affirmative resolution procedure, so that there will be an opportunity for us to consider them? Mr. Sutcliffe: I am grateful to have another opportunity to explain the position. I do not think that there was any confusion on Second Reading. The Secretary of State outlined the procedures to which the affirmative and negative procedures will apply. I hope that when Opposition Members read their Hansard they will know which procedures apply to which clauses. Norman Lamb: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 5 Rights during and after additional paternity leave Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Column Number: 42 Mr. Sutcliffe: I want to say a few words on the clause. It is important that fathers and adopters who take additional paternity leave are protected whilst on that leave and after they have taken it. Current legislation on maternity and paternity leave provides protection for employees during and after taking any leave entitlement. Section 80C of the Employment Rights Act 1996 provides for regulations to be made to ensure that a person absent on paternity leave is entitled, for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed, to benefit from the terms and conditions of employment that would have applied had he not been absent. It also provides that an employee on paternity leave is bound by obligations arising under those terms and conditions for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed. He is also entitled to return to a job of a kind prescribed in regulations. The clause amends section 80C to allow comparable regulations to be made in respect of terms and conditions applying during additional paternity leave, whether following birth or adoption, and in respect of rights of return from additional paternity leave. That will encourage employees to feel confident about taking such leave entitlements and ensure that there is no adverse treatment of fathers or adopters who take advantage of the new leave right. We wish to consult further on the exact terms and conditions to be applied and what the right of return will be, but it is envisaged that they will follow the provisions that apply to either ordinary or additional maternity leave. Question put and agreed to. Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 7 Entitlement to additional statutory paternity pay: adoption Mr. Sutcliffe: I beg to move amendment No. 18, in clause 7, page 6, line 11, leave out ‘adoption’ and insert ‘paternity’. This Government amendment is designed to correct an error in the drafting of the Bill. Clause 7(1) refers to “additional statutory adoption pay”, but it should read additional statutory paternity pay. In the case of an adoption, it will allow the eligible partner of an adopter to receive additional statutory paternity pay. Amendment agreed to. Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill. Mr. Sutcliffe: To slow the pace down a little, I should like to speak to clause 7. In response to the growing demand for fathers to have greater opportunities to care for their child and have the option to be the primary carer, the Government are committed to introducing new legislation to provide parents with more choice and flexibility in caring for their children during the first year of the child’s life. Provisions have been made for
Clause 7 inserts new section 171ZEB in part 12ZA of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992. The new section will allow the Secretary of State to make regulations entitling employees who satisfy certain conditions to additional statutory paternity pay following the placement of a child for adoption, as set out in subsection (1). Additional statutory paternity pay will be paid by employers who can recover most or all of it from the state, and it will be administered by employers in the same way as statutory paternity pay. Subsection (2) provides for conditions that should be satisfied in order for someone to be entitled to additional statutory paternity pay. The person will be the partner of a person with whom a child has been placed for adoption—an “adopter”—or, if the child is jointly adopted by a couple, the member of the couple who does not take statutory adoption pay in respect of the adoption. Those conditions include the relationship with the child and the child’s adopter, the detail of which would be set out in regulations, and the employee’s employment status and earnings, the detail of which would again be set out in regulations. Subsection (2) provides also for conditions that the adopter must meet for the partner to be entitled to additional statutory paternity pay: the adopter should have been entitled to statutory adoption pay and have some of that entitlement remaining, and they must have taken action that is treated as returning to work. That is set out in subsection (2)(f). Column Number: 44 The regulations will set out exactly what constitutes return to work. The aim of this provision is to ensure that there is only one payment stream and only one partner off work to care for the child at any time. It will be the choice of the adopter if he or she wishes to return to work and when he or she does so. The intention is that a partner would be able to receive additional statutory paternity pay only for the remainder of the period during which the adopter would have been entitled to statutory adoption pay had they not returned to work. For example, an adopter returning to work after 30 weeks of statutory adoption pay would enable an eligible partner to take nine weeks paid additional paternity leave. A partner would still be able to take unpaid additional paternity leave for a maximum of 26 weeks until the child’s first birthday. The intention is that by the end of this Parliament we shall extend statutory adoption pay to 52 weeks from the 39 weeks that will be in place in April 2007. That would mean that under the same scenario, a partner would be entitled to up to 22 weeks paid additional paternity leave. There has been a growing request for legislation to provide for circumstances in which the child’s mother dies. We have taken the opportunity to include in this clause, at subsection (3), a provision to allow some of the conditions in subsection (2) to be excluded or modified if the child’s adopter dies, so that the partner could take a longer period of paid leave. Again, we shall consult on the regulations. Question put and agreed to. Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Further consideration adjourned.—[Mr. Dhanda.] Adjourned accordingly at one minute to One o’clock, till this day at Four o’clock. |
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