Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill |
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Mr. Paice: I am grateful to the Minister, and beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. Knight: I beg to move amendment No. 89, in schedule 1, page 44, line 10, leave out
and insert ‘For’. The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 90 to 102. Mr. Knight: The purpose of the amendments is to provide for a combined annual report and accounts for Natural England to be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State, and for a similar requirement for the Commission for Rural Communities. It is a Treasury requirement to adopt that method of laying the accounts before the House as best practice. It is more efficient than previous practice, which was to lay the report and accounts before the House separately, the report being dealt with by the Secretary of State and the accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Column Number: 21 When, under the amendments, the Comptroller and Auditor General has completed his audit of the annual accounts, he will send the accounts, which will include his audit report, to the Secretary of State. The accounts will then be combined with the annual report and laid before the House as one document by the Secretary of State. The amendments also provide for the Secretary of State to give direction to Natural England and the Commission for Rural Communities on the timetable for producing the accounts. That will facilitate a Treasury requirement for establishing faster timetables for the production and presentation of public sector accounts. Amendment agreed to. Amendments made: No. 90, in schedule 1, page 44, line 14, at end insert
No. 91, in schedule 1, page 44, line 15, leave out sub-paragraph (2). No. 92, in schedule 1, page 44, line 23, leave out
and insert ‘For’. No. 93, in schedule 1, page 44, line 27, at end insert
No. 94, in schedule 1, page 44, line 31, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
No. 95, in schedule 1, page 44, line 32, at end insert—
Schedule 1 agreed to. Clause 2 General purpose Mr. Paice: I beg to move amendment No. 39, in clause 2, page 2, line 6, leave out from ‘generations’ to end and insert
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 40, in clause 2, page 2, line 10, leave out from beginning to second ‘the’ and insert ‘promoting’. No. 41, in clause 2, page 2, line 11, at end insert
No. 1, in clause 2, page 2, line 12, after ‘promoting’, insert ‘sustainable’. No. 42, in clause 2, page 2, line 13, after ‘recreation,’, insert—
No. 43, in clause 2, page 2, line 13, after ‘recreation,’, insert— Column Number: 22
No. 44, in clause 2, page 2, line 15, at end insert—
Mr. Paice: Here we come to something slightly different; clause 2 is one of the most important in the Bill, and was the subject of considerable debate in the Select Committee. I see the hon. Member for Sherwood nodding in agreement. The amendments deal with different aspects of the purposes of Natural England. They do not all necessarily originate from the same perspective, but because so many different organisations have expressed concerns about the phraseology of the clause and the absence of certain points—particularly in subsection (2)—I have tabled amendments that I thought relevant. Inevitably some of them may embody differing or even almost conflicting points of view, but it is only right and proper that the Committee has the opportunity to discuss them, and that the Minister is able to respond. The Chairman: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it may be helpful to the Committee to know that I take the view that it is likely, given the scope of the amendments, that we shall cover most if not all of the content of clause 2 in the debate. Therefore we may well not have a debate on clause stand part. I tell the Committee that so that anyone who wants to speak on clause 2 may seek to catch my eye. Mr. Paice: Thank you, Mr. Forth. I was not planning to say any more than my slightly more significant earlier contribution. This is a pretty critical part of the proposals. Amendment No. 39 would replace the phrase “contributing to sustainable development” in subsection (1). There are different views about whether that is the right phrase, including those of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, the Country Landowners Association, the Country Land and Business Association and the National Farmers Union, who say, with considerable force, that the phrase is not sufficiently strong and that it should be replaced with “promoting sustainable development”, for example. Views have also been expressed by organisations including the group known as Wildlife and Countryside Link, the Wildlife Trusts and the Woodland Trust. The Country Landowners Association said that it
Column Number: 23 It goes on to refer to the development of environmental stewardship schemes over the last 10 to 15 years under Governments of both parties, which have delivered considerable environmental benefits. The NFU said:
which relates to some of the amendments. In contrast, other organisations, such as the Wildlife Trust, support the wording in the clause which refers to Natural England contributing to sustainable development; the Woodland Trust and others made similar comments. There is a disagreement and, daft as it may sound, I am not sure which side I want to come down on— Jim Knight: The hon. Gentleman has discovered a third way. Mr. Paice: I am certainly not looking for a third way, but it is important that the Committee examines the matter further—the hon. Member for Sherwood kindly nodded when I referred earlier to the Select Committee’s extensive debate on the subject. The phrase “contributing to sustainable development”, which is the Government’s choice, has several interpretations. The amendment would change the phrasing to “within the context of sustainable development”, taking it as read that sustainable development is part and parcel of what is going on, and also refers to the
In amendments Nos. 42 and 43 I have tried specifically, in different ways, to emphasise the point about rural communities and the people who work in them, be they farmers, landowners, managers or others. We cannot separate the natural environment from the communities that live within it; in many cases, they are part and parcel of its management and have an impact on it. Events in past centuries show that the English landscape has been fashioned almost entirely by people. It is not the original natural landscape of England in the days of the wild wood; it has been changed ever since Mesolithic man began to cut back that wood some 12,000 years ago, and it has been evolving. Many of the features that the 80-odd per cent. of the population who live in our conurbations want to protect, and the flora and fauna that live in those features, exist because of man’s activities over the years. Not all those activities, judged by today’s standards, have necessarily been benign, and some may have been malign to the interests of wildlife or the countryside, but nevertheless that is why those features exist. If one goes to the Peak district, the Lake district or the fenland in and around my constituency, one sees a landscape fashioned entirely by man. The hedges and dry-stone walls were not put there with an Arts Council grant, but because they were required to contain stock. The woods were used for feeding and
Moving into today’s world, the development of the entry-level and higher-level schemes, both of which we support in principle as excellent schemes that do what should be done to reward landowners and farmers for positive actions to look after the environment, require the active participation of communities. That is why clause 2 on Natural England’s general purpose should refer to the importance of involving communities in one way or another. As I said, there are different phrases in the amendments, and I will not put my hand up to say that any one is the right one. However, I would like the Minister to accept the principle behind them, which is that we need to involve communities and ensure that Natural England’s role contributes to communities remaining viable. Now is not the time for the Committee to discuss the trials and tribulations facing the farming community—let alone what the Prime Minister with or without Mr. Chirac may do in future—but we are facing serious economic problems in parts of the countryside. It is important that Natural England has a role of understanding that and working with communities. Amendments Nos. 40 and 41 clearly hang together. They address a different aspect, which brings us back to your point, Mr. Forth, about the all-embracing nature of the debate. They refer to subsection (2)(c) and the
The Minister touched on this point in his earlier rebuttal of my amendment on property. The amendments refer to a critical part of the role of Natural England. As somebody who was born and brought up in the countryside and who loves it, I am for ever concerned that so many of our fellow citizens do not understand the reality of what goes on there. While different bodies make sterling efforts, the role of Natural England has to be focused on that function. I am therefore concerned about the apparently restrictive nature of paragraph (c). I accept readily that it uses the word “includes”, which means that it is not exclusive, but the Bill refers only to Natural England
I do not see why the body needs to be restricted to the issue of facilities, which is why I have tabled amendments that would broaden its role to promoting the understanding, education and enjoyment of the countryside by any means, although I have added the provision of facilities as part of that. English Nature undertakes that work now, which is why I am puzzled as to why the clause is seemingly restrictive. 11.45 amAmendment No. 44 is, in effect, a debate in its own right. It refers to the statistics and what is known as the Sandford principle, which relates to the potential for conflict between the many aspects of the general
I entirely concur with that view. I have made my point about sustainable development, rural communities and all the other issues, but at the end of the day, Natural England has no function if it is not about conserving the natural environment. We therefore need a conflict resolution clause to deal with irreconcilable conflict, which is the phrase that is being used to describe the Sandford principle. The Woodland Trust, the Wildlife Trust, the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds have all made similar statements, and they are right to do so. There are, of course, many ways in which one could phrase the principle. Again, I do not take any great pride in the phrasing that I have used. Others have recommended different phraseology, but I wanted to raise the issue in debate because it occupied a great deal of the Select Committee’s time, and I suspect that it may well engender comment from other members of the Committee. It certainly arose on Second Reading, and Ministers implied—I do not want to put words into their mouths—that they were sensitive to the issue. I particularly wanted to identify the areas in which such conflict might arise. One can imagine all sorts of scenarios, but I believe that there is pretty widespread agreement on situations in which there is potential conflict concerning the purpose of conserving and protecting the natural environment. That brings us to paragraph (d), which refers to
Most country people and organisations concerned about the environment recognise that there is sometimes a conflict between the objectives of increasing access and conserving nature. Access can cause erosion problems and can seriously disturb wildlife or perfectly normal economic, commercial activities that take place in the countryside. It is quite clear that a conflict could arise. Almost coincidentally, one of the leading opponents of including the Sandford principle in legislation is the Ramblers Association, which has said that it does not believe that there is a need for a method of conflict resolution to be included in the Bill. That implies that it recognises that there is the potential for conflict, and that it does not want its objectives for access being overridden by concern for the environment. I am afraid that, in this case, I beg to differ with the association. If such a conflict did arise, care for the environment should be pre-eminent. That is the purpose of the objective. There are, as I say, many ways of arguing the case and many scenarios that one can imagine, but there is a view that is almost universally held, with the major exception of the Ramblers Association, that the Sandford principle should be incorporated in the Bill.
I look forward to what the Minister has to say about the amendments. They cover a number of aspects relating to the purpose of Natural England, and I accept that subsection (2) begins by saying
so it is not an exclusive list. We all know the problems of trying to put an exclusive list into legislation. Nevertheless, those purposes in the list will be seen as the primary ones because they are specified in the Bill. I believe that the context of sustainable development and the involvement and viability of local communities, be they farmers, sporting interests or other interests such as the forestry industry, should all be included in the Bill. Finally, there is the question of a conflict resolution clause, which would most logically fit into this part of the Bill. Arguably, it might fit somewhere else, but I believe that it should be under clause 2, which is why I have tabled the amendment at this point. As I said earlier, I am not wedded to the particular words that I have chosen. These are important issues: the question of Natural England’s purpose has occupied a great deal of discussion in this Committee, in the Select Committee and in many other quarters. It also took up the largest part of the submissions to the Select Committee and seems to have taken up the largest part of all the submissions made by various bodies to members of this Committee. I look forward to contributions from other hon. Members, and commend the amendments to the Committee. Mr. Breed: I want to make some brief comments in support of what the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire has said. I suspect that we have all received a considerable number of briefings from various interested groups on what is to them, and to those of us who were on the Select Committee that examined this issue, the heart of the Bill and crucial to the way it will operate, if and when it is passed. In that context, “sustainable” and “sustainability” can sometimes mean rather different things to different people, depending on whether they approach the matter from an environmental or economic direction. Mention has been made of the three-legged stool principle, with which I entirely agree. It is clear, however, that it will be vital for positive working partnerships to be created between Natural England, rural businesses, rural communities, farmers and those who use the land. That will require considerable trust and understanding, and a certain amount of shared vision. I think that it would be true to say that many people who live and work in the countryside, and many of those who work in agriculture, have not had positive recent experiences with Government, whether they dealt with the former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or with DEFRA. It is therefore only natural that when they look at these proposals it
The people who live and work in the countryside want Natural England, in its fullness, to be vibrant and viable, not set in some sort of aspic jelly, trying to maintain or regain a nostalgic vision of the countryside. “Natural” means something different to those who want to work and make the land productive. The countryside is there for everyone. Natural England will have a real role in ensuring that not only those who live and work in the countryside but those who live and work in urban areas have access to it and understand it. We must ensure that our countryside is the best that it can be. The situation is similar to that of old buildings, which are often best preserved through their use for proper purposes. Buildings can go through different stages of use, which preserves them as real buildings. Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): May I ask the hon. Gentleman to define exactly what he means by a rural community, given that in many rural areas there is a mix of urban and rural usage? There are industrialised rural communities in many parts of the north, for instance, including in my constituency. Mr. Breed: That is absolutely right. Many people have a rural setting around their community. Not only those who live in villages but those who live on the edge of large slices of our countryside want to ensure that it is preserved and enhanced, not just for those who live there but for those who have access to it. I agree that we must ensure that all people have an understanding of what the countryside is for. To return to my analogy, I hope that we recognise that the land will change, as the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire said. Whatever we see as natural today might not have been natural a few hundred years ago. Changes will take place. Our amendment would insert the word “sustainable” before “access”. There is the potential for conflict in various ways where access is made available, and we need to strike a balance. The difficulty with this part of the Bill is in striking the right balance between the differing and competing interests in respect of the land. The potential for conflict is real, and I support the Sandford principle for conflict resolution because there need to be at least some guiding principles. The word “irreconcilable” is used in relation to that principle, so I take it that it will apply to the sort of cases that we hope will be few and far between. The essence of the Bill is co-operation, understanding of one another’s viewpoints and the need to share that vision. I hope that Sandford will
I, too, look forward to the Minister’s comments. No doubt he, too, received many of the briefing notes, if not all of them and more, that other hon. Members received. He will therefore know that there is a strong sense that this is a crucial part of the Bill in which the wording has to be right. It is sometimes difficult for Opposition Members to get exactly the right wording, as has been said, but I think that we share the same objective. The question is how the provision will be used and how Natural England in particular will conduct itself. English Nature has conducted itself in a reasonably positive way, and the Environment Agency strives to ensure that it has the right sort of relationships, but the provision that we are discussing is crucial. The wording of the clauses and the meanings behind them need to be as clear as possible if we are to develop those vital partnerships. Paddy Tipping (Sherwood) (Lab): I am pleased to follow the hon. Members for South-East Cambridgeshire and for South-East Cornwall. Perhaps I should start by declaring an interest: I am president of the Nottinghamshire Ramblers Association. I am demoted when it comes to the national Ramblers Association, as I am a vice-president of that organisation. I shall make the association’s position on access and conservation clear later. I want first to reinforce the points that both hon. Gentlemen made. Clause 2, on the general purpose of Natural England, is perhaps the most lively part of the Bill. There has been intensive discussion and, as has been said, conflicting views have been expressed to hon. Members. 12 pmThere are conflicting views because there is conflict in the countryside. We want a living, working and changing countryside. I was struck by the example given by the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed). As a youth I often went, as I still do, up Buckden pike in the Yorkshire dales and looked down over Wharfedale. My children say to me, “It’s great; it’s never changed,” but it has always changed. The landscape is man-made—and woman-made—and it will continue to change. Changes in agriculture will drive changes in the environment and landscape even further, so there will be change and conflict. A living countryside must have economic value. Farmers are landowners and custodians of the countryside; that conflict is brought into sharper focus by recent Government policy changes, and we must be aware of it. Natural England should have the resources and expertise to handle that conflict. Having seen the staff involved with the new agency, I think that it will have. There are problems with access, and there can be conflicts. The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 recognises that access must be restricted in certain places and at certain times of the year. People who walk in the countryside, particularly members of
I was interested in the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall about sustainable recreation. I would like the phrase “quiet recreation”, which is used in national parks legislation, to be used, but, much as I hate to admit it, there is scope and a need for venues in the countryside for motor cycling. Some Committee members are clay pigeon shooters—that activity also has environmental consequences in terms of noise. It is difficult to resolve those conflicts and tensions. The Select Committee considered that issue, and myriad groups have written to each of us individually and collectively on it. There is no easy answer, and we could get into a theological debate about it and argue about a pinhead, but I am confident that, with good land-management practices, good consultation and a great deal of thought, most such conflicts can be resolved on a case-by-case basis. This is not the major issue that several organisations that have written to me seem to think it is, but I accept and am pleased that the Government accept, as shown in their response to the Select Committee report,
If that approach is good enough for national parks, it should be good enough for areas of outstanding natural beauty. We must consider the wider countryside. There will be odd cases in the wider countryside in which conflicts cannot be resolved with the best will in the world, but they will be few and far between and Natural England will be able to manage the process. Clearly, if there is irrevocable conflict, conservation and biodiversity interests must take precedence.That will probably work out in practice. There may be no need to put this provision in the Bill, but I know that the Minister is aware of these issues, as are his officials. I know that in private discussions the issues are being considered, but I do not expect that this issue, which is a pretty difficult one, will be resolved today in this Committee Room. I say gently to the Minister that the Bill has just started in Committee and has a long way to go. I suspect that, even if he is not prepared to give commitments today, this will become a real, live issue at a later stage and perhaps in another place. There will have to be some more significant thought and, more particularly, more significant reassurances given than are on the table. |
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