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Mr. Boswell: Will my hon. Friend agree— The Chairman: Order. I would not want the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) to go too far down this road because that debate has already been concluded. He may continue provided that his contribution relates to the amendment. Mr. Boswell: I shall be very brief. Mathematics has been of concern to the Committee, and the only point at which the issues of whether fees are charged and whether they are made variable coincide is at zero. Mr. Collins: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a powerful point. The key consideration before us in terms of the amendments grouped with amendment No. 2 relates to the
Column Number: 362 If the councils s are designed to be enforcement mechanisms under the provisions of clause 23, there is all the distinction in the world between organisations whose primary function is to provide financial support and guidance and funding streams for higher education and organisations that suddenly become constrained to become, in effect, police officers and enforcers who are designed to impose political will and objectives.Before the Minister objects to the idea that there should be a prohibition on any conditions being imposed by the councils, of course it is the case that they both now and in the future—as in the past—have been designed to solicit evidence that money is granted on conditions that are fulfilled. The conditions previously imposed could not really be described as either political or party political. They relate to evidence that research has been carried out of sufficient quality into the matters for which funding has been provided. Universities have—as the Minister pointed out earlier—provided the appropriate number of courses for the appropriate number of students given the level of funding with which they were provided. Under the measures in the clause that would be struck out by our amendments, we are entering new territory. We are saying to the higher education councils that they are to move into the heart of one of the most sensitive of all the political debates surrounding higher education: that the councils should be the direct instrument for the imposition of the Secretary of State's will as expressed through OFFA or the director of fair access to higher education and that the higher education funding councils should therefore become, on a scale relatively unprecedented since their creation, an instrument of—I hate to put it so aggressively, but I fear that it will be seen in this way—negativity and perhaps even conflict. That is regrettable, because there will be spillover. Inevitably, human beings' discussions are affected by the tone, nature, content and outcome of their recent discussions with each other. If the higher education funding councils have become part of the process whereby a political or social agenda is being imposed on HE institutions, it is difficult, if not impossible, to believe that subsequent conversations involving the higher education funding councils and the HE institutions would not be coloured by the nature of previous discussions. The Opposition believe that the higher education community would suffer from the imposition of this social engineering agenda and that the working relationships, on which so much in higher education depends, may be irretrievably damaged as a result. I am sure that the Minister will be the first to say that all sorts of attempts will be made to ensure good will and to ensure that amicable relationships are preserved, but we are concerned that choosing to make the Higher Education Funding Council for England, in particular, an instrument of this particular provision makes it possible, even likely, that important working relationships will be damaged.
Column Number: 363 It would be helpful if the Minister could address the wider and very important issues relating to the reasons for having approved plans, and if he could say why it is appropriate for HEFCE to impose them. I know what he will say, because he said it earlier and it is perfectly fair and practical; if we are going to have enforcement mechanisms—perhaps not the phrase that he would have used but a fair paraphrase—over institutions that are independent and not nationalised, very few tools other than financial penalties are available to Government. However, that is not the same as saying that HEFCE should be the imposer of those penalties. After all, HEFCE receives funding from the Department, and it is at least plausible that HEFCE should be kept separate if penalties are to be imposed. I stress again that we are not at all in favour of penalties. There should also be more scope for the Department to be seen to be the instigator of action rather than hiding behind the skirts of a very important and respected institution. It would be interesting to hear the Minister's response.The clause is the heart of the Bill, so it is important to have sufficient time to debate the subsequent groups of amendments that have been tabled to it. The hon. Member for Nottingham, North seems to believe that any speech, other than his own, that is longer than 10 or 12 minutes is excessively lengthy, so I do not intend to prolong my remarks beyond saying that I hope that the Minister will address these issues and those relating to the practical consequences of amendments Nos. 215 and 264. As I said, it is unlikely that the official Opposition will support either of them, but I would be very interested to hear which of the two amendments the Minister believes secures the objective of stopping variability.
10 amMrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge) (Lab): I believe that I will pass the Nottingham, North test this morning, partly because my voice will give out if I go on for much longer. I listened carefully to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, but have no clearer idea of what Conservative policy is on fees. I gather that the Opposition are opposed to top-up fees. Apart from that, however, no policy has emerged from the speech or the amendments. I wish to speak to my amendment No. 215; I cannot speak for the hon. Member for Ceredigion, because I have no idea what he intends in amendment No. 264. We did not collaborate when tabling our amendments. It is important that graduates should contribute to the cost of their higher education when they can afford to. It is a progressive policy that the Government introduced in 1998 in the teeth of opposition from students. However, I believe that it is right. I believe also that any policy that involves a hefty contribution from the state or even total funding would be regressive, and I could not support it.
Column Number: 364 I am not clear what the Conservative or Liberal Democrat parties want. Their policies are clear, but taxpayers' money could be spent in ways that would contribute far more to social equality than what they suggest. Their remarks are often opportunistic, designed to get students on board, but without thinking of the general public who will have to pick up the tab.I lost the argument last week on the variable fee. I accept that the majority of right hon. and hon. Members do not agree that variability could be damaging. However, it leaves me with a problem: I do not understand the relationship between the fee and the cost of the course, or any other relationship that may be considered. I understand that it is not intended that there should be a relationship between the fee and the cost of the course, or between the fee and the potential earning power of the graduate. For instance, graduates who are expected to earn good incomes could be charged more for some courses than for others. Another factor could be the scarcity of graduates in particular subjects. If the proposals go ahead, we will probably finish up with a mixture of all those things. Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): Would my hon. Friend not accept that, although she says that she does not understand the relationship between the factors that she has identified, the whole point is that there does not need to be a fixed relationship between them? The relationship should not necessarily be determined by the state, the Department for Education and Skills, and not even by HEFCE. It should be a matter of judgment for each university. Mrs. Campbell: My hon. Friend states his views, but we probably disagree. It seems to me that it would be helpful to know the basis on which a fee was to be charged. That is the point of my amendment. Indeed, even if I do not answer his point directly, it will become clear that we disagree fundamentally. I understand that once a university has been given the go-ahead to set a fee other than the basic fee, it will have the freedom to set it anywhere within the £0 to £3,000 range. I tabled my amendment after speaking to some of my constituents who are students at Anglia polytechnic university. They are concerned that some universities may become involved in a bidding-down war. They are worried that APU may decide to charge less for some of its courses—and not because of a scarcity of graduates or because those courses cost less to run, and not because graduates in particular subjects cannot expect to earn as much money, but simply because other universities are attracting more students. If that is the case, those courses will become cheaper. My students are concerned that that will undermine the value of the courses that they are now studying, so that when an employer asks an applicant what class of degree they have—a first, a 2.2, a 2.1—they may also ask, ''And how much did you pay for your degree?'' That is a worry to students. I should like the Minister to explain how he intends to overcome that fear among the students at APU.
Column Number: 365 I suggest something that might be regarded as an interim solution. I have considered the evidence from Australia. Since 1989, Australia has also had tuition fees, which are repaid after graduation through the tax system. After the Labour Government fell in 1996, the Conservatives in Australia introduced variable fees. They raised fees by 122 per cent. and cut repayment thresholds. Australia's higher education contribution scheme has three bands of charges, according to the type of subject studied. One of the bands is for arts degrees, another is for maths and engineering degrees and the last is for vocational degrees. Adopting such a system would overcome some of the problems with a fixed fee that my right hon. Friend the Minister mentioned in his winding-up speech last Thursday.I am aware that Australia has just decided, rather controversially, to change its system and adopt one much more like what the Government propose. However, I maintain that, because of the difficulties with adopting a variable scheme in one step, my proposal might be a good interim solution to see how regulated variable fees with different charges for each band would work in practice. I am sure that that would overcome some of the problems and fears that I have mentioned. We have a great deal to learn from the experience of how the Australian system has worked.
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