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Standing Committee G
Thursday 26 February 2004
(Afternoon)
[Mr. Edward O'Hara in the Chair]
Clause 30
Training institution and centres
2.30 pm
Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con): I beg to move amendment No. 108, in
It is good to welcome you back to the Chair, Mr. O'Hara.
The clause deals with training institutions and provides that
However, when we read the explanatory notes, we see that the magic word ''regional'' creeps in again. It is not in the Bill. The explanatory notes suggest that the Secretary of State might want to create regional training centres.
The Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire (Mr. Nick Raynsford): What about ''European''?
Mr. Hammond: The Minister is quite wrong: the word ''European'' does not appear anywhere. That is yesterday's argument, if I may say so. Let us focus on the issues that are on the agenda. The Government's regional agenda is clearly at the forefront of the issues that we have to consider. The Government's European agenda appears to have been abandoned in the face of the overwhelming hostility of the electorate. No doubt the regional agenda will be abandoned in the face of the overwhelming hostility of the electorate in due course.
Mr. Raynsford: Dream on.
Mr. Hammond: Given the amount of public money that the Minister is throwing at the issue, trying to secure the vote that he wants, I am not surprised that he thinks that he will win the argument, but I suspect that the outcome will be somewhat different.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Phil Hope): What has this got to do with the fire service?
Mr. Hammond: The answer is quite a lot. One of the consistent themes that we have had to consider is the Government's clear intention to introduce a regional dimension to the fire service and to create a regional fire authority when an elected regional assembly is created in any region, taking away powers from local authorities. That is precisely what the Minister of State told us on another occasion was not the purpose of the
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creation of regional assemblies. Ever since, we have seen that commitment steadily eroded.
To return to the issue of colleges and training centres, we need to know the Government's intentions. There is clearly no problem with the Secretary of State running a central training institution, with local fire authorities running local training institutions, or with groups of fire authorities getting together to run local training institutions.
Jim Knight (South Dorset) (Lab): Regional ones?
Mr. Hammond: The problem is that the word ''regional'' has been corrupted. We cannot use the term in its natural and proper sense. If a group of fire authorities got together and created a training centre for use by six or seven authorities, that might naturally be referred to as a regional training centre. However, the sense in which the Government use the word means a training centre based on the Government office regions—those bureaucratic boundaries that have been drawn on a map.
We need to understand the Government's intentions, because it would be unnatural if the Secretary of State had it in mind to create a training centre in each Government office region. That would be inappropriate and superfluous. It would be a waste of money—just like the rest of the regional agenda.
In anticipation of the fact that there probably will not be a need for a stand part debate, I hope that I can address a few other issues before coming on to the amendment. Why does the Secretary of State need the specific power under clause 30? Why can he not do what he is permitted to do by clause 30 under clause 28(2), which seems to give him a pretty broad power to ''establish and maintain'' organisations that he considers appropriate? I would have thought that training was well within that remit.
I would also like an answer to a question about charging. If the Secretary of State creates training centres and institutions, presumably, he will be able to charge fire authorities that use them. I am not suggesting that that is improper, but there is no clear power to do that under clause 30. There is such a provision in clause 28 for organisations created under the power in that clause. If the intention is to charge and to make the institution self-financing, can the Under-Secretary point to the provision from which the Secretary of State would derive the power to charge?
Amendment No. 108 is a probing amendment. It was difficult to make my hand write an amendment that named a specific institution, because I hate amendments that do that. Its purpose is simply to ask the Under-Secretary to confirm that he intends the Fire Service College to continue in its current role and function, and indeed to have an expanded role and function. I hope that he will say something helpful about the role that he envisages for it. If his scheme includes the creation of further training centres and institutions, how will they relate to the Fire Service College? As the amendment would place a reference to the Fire Services College in the Bill, it will allow that short debate to take place. Once I have heard what the Under-Secretary says, I am sure that I shall be able to seek leave to withdraw the amendment.
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Phil Hope: Mr. O'Hara, can I clarify whether, in responding to the amendment, I can speak more fully about the Fire Service College, if we are not to have a clause stand part debate, as the hon. Gentleman said?
The Chairman: There seems to be a willingness on all sides to incorporate a clause stand part debate in the debate on the amendment, so yes.
Phil Hope: Thank you, Mr. O'Hara.
Clause 30 re-enacts and enhances provision in section 23(1) of the Fire Services Act 1947, which allows the Secretary of State to establish and to maintain a central training institution for the fire and rescue service and one or more local training centres. We believe that the amendment is unnecessary, as I think the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) recognises.
I can confirm to the hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) that the central training institution referred to in the clause is the Fire Service College. It is referred to there instead of being embraced in clause 28(2) because we want to put beyond doubt what the training institutions can do. That is why clause 30 contains detailed descriptions of the purposes of such an institution under subsection (2)(a) to (f). In particular, the Fire Service College is funded on a commercial basis and has a trading fund.
The college in Moreton-in-Marsh has a long-established role as our national training centre for the fire and rescue service. It has internationally acknowledged expertise in operational incident command training, centred on its unique fire ground. The White Paper ''Our Fire and Rescue Service'' recommends building on that role and developing the college into a centre of excellence for the fire and rescue service. The clause gives the college the flexibility that it needs to respond to the changing needs of a modernised fire and rescue service. Subsection (1) therefore re-enacts section 23(1) of the 1947 Act, while subsection (2)(a) to (d) sets out in more detail the college's role in providing direct training for the fire and rescue service and supporting training delivered elsewhere.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge described regional government as a waste of time and money. I think that that was his phrase. He might like to explain that to the hundreds of Conservative councillors who play an active role in regional assemblies across the country and do so to good effect.
The Chairman: Order. We need not go any further down that road.
Phil Hope: I understand, Mr. O'Hara, but I could not resist the opportunity to make that point.
Components of the national work force development strategy will be delivered nationally, regionally and locally. The Fire Service College's role will be to provide the specialist and operational training that will be a mandatory element of the integrated personal development system at key stages and to maintain standards in training being provided at regional or local level.
Subsection (2)(e) and (f) refer to the provision by the college of training and advice beyond the UK fire
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and rescue service, both here and overseas. The UK fire and rescue service will remain the college's primary focus. However, the college has an established reputation in the wider UK fire industry and with international fire and rescue services, for which it has provided training when it has had the capacity to do so. In answer to the hon. Gentleman's question, we expect that aspect of the college's training to increase, as its distance and e-learning capabilities increase further.
I have visited the college twice in the past six months, and I am looking forward to doing so in the near future to discuss its business plan for the coming year. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister also visited the college in September. We were both impressed by the uniqueness of the fire ground and the potential for the college to build on its reputation as a national centre for incident command training to provide specialist training in urban search and rescue and other new dimension techniques. We are close to opening the new urban search and rescue facility that was started last year.
Mr. Hammond: The Minister referred to the fact that the college is currently established as a trading fund. My question really concerns the basis on which the college has that status. It is clearly re-established by the clause, given that the 1947 Act is being scrapped. I do not see any provision on that other than the one by which the Secretary of State may establish and maintain it. Where does the college derive the right to operate as a trading fund from its new establishment base in the clause?
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