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Mrs. Gillan: I agree entirely. Despite the Minister's assurances about the review process, one problem to do with victim support is that data protection officers and chief constables fear that passing referral information could bring about personal liability. When those fears exist, the number of referrals goes down dramatically. It has been estimated that a quarter of the country is adversely affected as individuals move around. There is a serious need for the Minister to take those fears into account.
Mr. Heath: That is right. If we want an illustration of the extraordinary views that are held about the application of the Data Protection Act 1998, we have only to think of the Soham situation and the Bichard inquiry to see that the legislation can be wildly misinterpreted by people who ought to know better.
There is a need for guidance, and it needs to be explicit. Without that guidance, if people can get the wrong end of the stick, they will. They do so for defensive reasons, because they do not want to be prosecuted and find themselves at the wrong end of proceedings having to defend their actions, or having to pay to defend them if they are a public body. We
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must have clarity. I shall study carefully what the Minister said, but we will probably need further explicit guidance before everyone is reassured.
Having said that, I look forward to reading the amendments to the other legislation. I should be grateful if the Minister can say whether he will write to me.
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Paul Goggins: Another Department has the lead on the issue, but I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the attention of my noble Friend, Baroness Ashton of Upholland. I am sure that appropriate communication will happen at the earliest opportunity.
Mr. Heath: I am most grateful. The interest shown in the matter by the Leader of the House, the Standards and Privileges Committee and the Speaker of the House was clear at business questions a few weeks ago. There is a general feeling that something needs to be done in the short term to correct the current position. Given the hon. Gentleman's assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 33
Grants for assisting victims, witnesses etc
Vera Baird (Redcar) (Lab): I beg to move amendment No. 88, in clause 33, page 19, line 30, at end add—
'(3) The Secretary of State may make grants to voluntary organisations under this section for the purpose of providing appropriate protection and support services for children who have suffered impairment due to seeing or hearing ill-treatment of another person. Any payments will be subject to such conditions as he considers appropriate.'.
Although I tabled the amendment, I should have preferred to defer to my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) because it falls within his area of interest concerning children. He is not present, however, so I shall press on.
This amendment, which I discussed with my hon. Friend and others, is advocated by Women's Aid and a large number of organisations, including Refuge, which are concerned about the impact on children of having seen or heard the ill treatment of another person, usually in the context of domestic violence.
Mr. Heath: I have sympathy with the intention behind the hon. and learned Lady's amendment. My noble Friends tabled such an amendment in another place and spoke to it. Does she agree, however, that although it is important for us to have this debate and receive the assurances that I hope the Minister will give us, the power is already contained in the clause, without amendment, to provide the sort of assistance that we want?
Vera Baird: It appears to be possible that grants could be paid to people under clause 33(1)
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''in connection with measures which appear . . . to be intended to assist victims, witnesses or other persons'',
but I am not sure about that. I ask the Minister to make clear what he envisages that wording allowing. At the moment, the situation is not a happy one.
The amendment presents a clear understanding, which the Government also have, of the potential damage to children from domestic violence. The Government recently made it clear that three quarters of children on the at-risk register live in households in which domestic violence occurs. The Department of Health acknowledges that domestic violence is a major indicator of risk to children and that perpetrators who are violent to their partners are frequently violent to their children.
There is an understanding that goes beyond the danger of physical injury to a child, as well as a parent, which is that a child will suffer from the trauma and shock of being exposed to violence inflicted by one party—usually one carer—on another. The amendment is intended to ensure that the use of the word ''victims'' in the clause is wide enough to permit the Secretary of State to give grants to children who have not physically been injured but who have witnessed very unpleasant things.
A recent book, ''Children's Perspectives on Domestic Violence'', written partly by Professor Liz Kelly of London Metropolitan university, consists in part of children who lived with domestic violence saying what they needed and what they suffered in that situation. Their replies were described as being astonishingly clear and consistent. The most commonly cited need was, not surprisingly, safety, but the next most common was someone to talk to. In the book, a nine-year-old girl speaking from her own experience said that people
''need someone to talk to. Because, if they were like me, sometimes I'm really sad and I need someone to talk to''.
She said that people may not be able to
''speak to the mum because maybe their mum don't want to talk about it. I think they should have someone to talk to.''
Clearly, that is not a desire for a chat; it is a profound need for a proper channel of communication with someone responsible, so that children who suffer exposure to violent behaviour can talk about the stresses that they suffer, their incomprehension and the impact that the behaviour has had on their development.
Children in the study also stated that the support services that they valued most in their sad youthful experience of domestic violence were those provided by children's support workers in refuges. Refuge organisations in England provide accommodation for about 23,500 children a year, and support services for about 110,000 children a year. They try to offer a wide range of services, including play, outings, and one-to-one support of the kind that I mentioned, involving advocacy and after care. Such organisations are the only widespread, dedicated source of support for children who have experienced domestic violence. However, children's support services in refuges are not mentioned in ''Every Child Matters''.
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There is always the law of unintended consequences, and Women's Aid has made it clear that recent Government initiatives—unintentionally, I am sure—are effectively reducing support services for children in that category. Women's Aid relates that children's services in refuges are starved of funds, because the funding comes through the ''supporting people'' programme, and its funding regime is not aimed at children. However, children make up two thirds of the refuge population.
National standards for day care for under-eights have set staffing ratio and minimum space standards that only some 40 per cent. of refuges can ever afford to meet. Some refuge organisations have had to cut back drastically on the services that they offer. Women's Aid is carrying out a survey to find out in detail how refuge organisations are responding to the national standards, but it seems as though only 25 per cent. of organisations will be able to comply with national standards.
Women's Aid points out that children who have been involved in proceedings relating to violent parents need to be assessed properly. In May 2003, Women's Aid carried out a survey of 170 refuge organisations and domestic violence services. Some 83 per cent. of those services, which are at the cutting edge of expertise in terms of children who suffer from domestic violence, say that the ability to assess children is currently limited, because assessments during proceedings tend to be one-off interviews with someone whom the child does not know. That means that the child does not have the opportunity to receive a service that is absolutely necessary even for adults: the opportunity to talk about the most intimate aspects of family life. We are talking about a relationship built on trust, and it is much harder to achieve that with children.
In the Women's Aid briefing, there are plenty of expressions of the fact that it is difficult for children to disclose material at one-off interviews. There is a strong suggestion in the material before us that, in private law proceedings, issues concerning children and arising from domestic violence and abuse are not being got at adequately. The amendment makes clear what the Secretary of State is prepared to do and how widely the clause can be interpreted. Children who experience domestic violence must have safety and support urgently.
Mrs. Gillan: Although the amendment is a probing one, I support it because it provides an opportunity to hear the Minister's views. There is a lacuna in looking after children. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre is not in Committee, because he has done much work on the subject.
It is obvious that children do not have to be physically or verbally abused to be hurt by domestic violence. Even hearing, or seeing, the abuse of one parent by the other can take a huge toll on kids and make a lasting impression. Children can also be the direct target of domestic violence and be hurt intentionally by an abusive parent, get caught in the middle of a particularly violent domestic incident and
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be hurt accidentally or, in some cases, even be killed. I remind the Under-Secretary that I have some outstanding written questions on the statistics concerning the deaths of children, to which I have not yet received a response. Whether those statistics exist is another matter, but I hope that an answer is forthcoming.
As a result of domestic violence, children can develop a physical or mental problem that could last a lifetime. They can grow up believing that violence is a normal part of family life and be more likely to be abusive as adults if they are males, and more passive and withdrawn if they are females. The children often live in daily fear of what to expect at home. Their lives can be filled with confusion, chaos, anger and tension, which can lead to a lifelong fear and inability to trust others.
The children can be isolated by an abusive parent who shuts off the family from outside help or support. They can feel responsible themselves for such abuse because they feel that they are powerless to stop it. I have a constituency case in which that is exactly what is happening. Not to put too fine a point on it, I am having difficulty in finding the correct route down which help can be provided to the child. At present, my constituent is dealing with a real and living problem. I do not want to breach any confidences in respect of the case, but at some stage this afternoon I may take the mind of the Minister, because I have to deal with the case before the end of the day.
Young children can become very anxious. Many complain of tummy aches, wet the bed or find difficulty in sleeping. They have temper tantrums, and they start to behave as if they have mental health problems themselves. Boys seem to express their distress outwardly, while girls are more likely to internalise their stress. When I was researching the problem, I came across a helpful list that had been published by an American organisation called Turning Point. It listed the symptoms for which people in contact with such children should keep a weather eye. It includes unusual or unexplained injuries, headaches, stomach aches, signs of neglect, withdrawal such as playing alone and having no friends, depression, low self-esteem, use of violence to solve conflicts, trouble falling or staying asleep, sleeping during school, flashbacks, difficulty expressing emotions, school problems including lengthy absences, and acting over-responsibly—as if the child is the adult of the family and takes control.
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The ongoing effects are alarming. I have looked at research showing that boys who have witnessed the abuse of their mothers are 10 times more likely as adults to abuse their female partners. Children who are abused in homes with domestic violence are 1,500 per cent. more likely to be neglected than other children. In homes where fathers assault mothers, the daughters are 651 per cent. more likely to be sexually abused than girls in non-abusive homes. Children of abused mothers are six times more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, and are at a higher risk of running away.
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A 1992 United States study showed that 63 per cent. of imprisoned kids between the ages of 11 and 20—I appreciate that these were American kids—were doing time for killing their mother's abuser. By reflecting on those statistics from Turning Point, I put on record the fact that this problem will cost society and the taxpayer a lot of money in the long term unless it is dealt with in its initial stages, when it first comes to the attention of the relevant agencies.
That is why I support this probing amendment and want to hear what the Minister has to say about it. Our children are our future. We have to protect them and minimise the damage done to them when they live in or around an abusive domestic relationship.
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