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Mr. Hayes: Will the Minister allow me?
Keith Hill: The hon. Gentleman has made an intervention from, as they say, a sedentary position.
Mr. Hayes: I do apologise, Mr. Conway.
To be absolutely clear, are we saying that, as I suggested, equal weight will be given to official and unofficial complaints?
Keith Hill: To adopt another sporting metaphor, that is a hole in one. The hon. Gentleman is correct.
The hon. Member for Poole asked whether the inspection would be restricted to the specific complaint. It could go beyond it if there were reasonable grounds. If an inspector went to premises in response to a complaint about live wires and found that a wall was in imminent danger of collapse, it would be absurd not to respond to that.
On the other hand, we attach importance to the idea that excessive impositions should not be placed on landlords. There will be no requirement for an environmental health officer to keep reinspecting premises. It is a matter for the environmental health officer's discretion. We shall deal with that in guidance, but we are eager to avoid any suspicion or suggestion that EHOs or surveyors should be in the habit of going on fishing expeditions. I hope that those undertakings will reassure the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Syms: Yes; the Minister has gone a long way towards reassuring me on the concerns that I raised.
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One other small point arises about official or other complaints. Presumably figures will have to be collected on official complaints. If a JP phoned a housing authority and said, ''I believe there's a problem with some housing in multiple occupation'', would the authority not be tempted to say, ''Don't make it official, Fred. We'll go and inspect it''? I raise the issue because it has just crossed my mind—[Laughter.] Would a housing authority want lots of official complaints? I gave the example of HMOs, which might be in the area that the authority was supposed to inspect, but the overall figures for official complaints might bear no relation to the state of housing in the area because of the way in which local people use the complaints procedure. Anyway, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5
Category 1 hazards: general duty to take enforcement action
Amendment made: No. 5, in
clause 5, page 5, line 15, at end insert—
'(ca) taking emergency remedial action under section (Emergency remedial action);
(cb) making an emergency prohibition order under section (Emergency prohibition orders);'.—[Keith Hill.]
Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6
Category 1 hazards: how duty under section 5 operates in certain cases
Amendment made: No. 6, in
Sir Sydney Chapman: On a point of order, Mr. Conway. I am sorry to detain the Committee. Amendment No. 5 may only have been a technical amendment, but there is no mention of it or of the amendments to clause 6 on my selection list.
The Chairman: I promise you that these things are confusing for everyone, including me. The selection list, which the Clerks Department issues at each sitting, shows hon. Members which amendments have been selected for discussion; it does not show those that have not been selected. The Chairman and the Clerk, however, are guided by the amendment paper. That may seem confusing, but the Minister formally moved amendments Nos. 5 and 6, and will now formally move amendment No. 7, because the Committee debated them earlier. Once we reach the place in the Bill to which such amendments apply, the
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Minister need only move them formally. I accept that that is extraordinarily confusing, but it is no doubt the historical and logical way to do things.
Amendment made: No. 7, in
clause 6, page 6, line 4, at end insert—
'(2A) In the case of paragraph (ca) of that subsection, the authority may regard the taking of emergency remedial action under section (Emergency remedial action) followed by the service of an improvement notice under section 9 as a single course of action.
(2B) In the case of paragraph (cb) of that subsection, the authority may regard the making of an emergency prohibition order under section (Emergency prohibition orders) followed by the service of a prohibition order under section 18 as a single course of action.'.—[Keith Hill.]
Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Category 2 hazards: powers to take enforcement action
Keith Hill: I beg to move amendment No. 8, in
clause 7, page 6, line 21, leave out 'and'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment No. 9.
Keith Hill: In the light of the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet, it is important that I explain the amendments.
In response to a category 2 hazard, a local housing authority may select the appropriate enforcement action from the options in subsection (2). It may serve an improvement notice under clause 10, make a prohibition order under clause 19, serve a hazard awareness notice under clause 27 or make a demolition order under section 265(3) or (4) of the Housing Act 1985, as substituted by clause 38.
Government amendments Nos. 8 and 9 correct an omission from the clause by adding to the list of possible enforcement options the declaration of a clearance area under section 289(2ZB) of the Housing Act 1985, as substituted by clause 39. The amendments do not in themselves add new powers, because the purpose of clause 7(2) is to summarise the powers provided in part 1 of the Bill and in the Housing Act 1985.
Those options, as amended, are essentially the same as those provided by clause 5 in respect of category 1 hazards, except that making a demolition order and declaring a clearance area are available as responses to category 2 hazards only in circumstances to be specified or described in an order made by the Secretary of State under section 265(3)(c) or (4)(c), or section 289(2ZB) of the 1985 Act.
Subsection (3) provides that, when a course of action has not proved satisfactory, the authority may take the same course or a different course of action.
Amendment agreed to.
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Amendment made: No. 9, in
clause 7, page 6, line 23, at end insert
'and
(e) section 289(2ZB) of that Act (power to make a slum clearance declaration).'.—[Keith Hill.]
Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 8
Clause Guidance about inspections and enforcement action
Mr. Syms: I beg to move amendment No. 187, in
clause 8, page 6, line 32, leave out 'may' and insert 'will'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment No. 188, in
clause 8, page 6, line 33, leave out 'about exercising' and insert 'on'.
Amendment No. 173, in
Amendment No. 189, in
clause 8, page 6, line 39, at end add—
'(d) the new qualifications and training required by Environmental Health Officers to undertake these functions.
(e) the nature and expenditure of time required so that these functions may be considered to have been properly fulfilled.
(f) the circumstances in which they may be required to compensate landlords for costs incurred in the carrying out of their functions.
(g) their functions in relation to fire safety legislation and in particular consideration be given to the installation of automatic fire sprinklers in HMOs'.
Amendment No. 246, in
clause 20, page 14, line 3, at end insert—
'(2A) The local authority may seek the guidance of the appropriate national authority on any of the requirements specified in (a), (b), (c), (d) or (e) of subsection (2)'.
Mr. Syms: We seem to be cantering through the Bill. The thrust of our amendments is to tease out a little more about guidance for the enforcement and inspection regime. We also want to know the likely costs for local government.
Subsection (1) states:
''The appropriate national authority may give guidance''.
It is clear that guidance does not need to be given, which is why we suggest in amendment No. 187 that it ''will'' give guidance. I wonder whether it would be nice to give the National Assembly for Wales the choice; I presume that when the clause talks of a national authority it must mean either the Government or the Assembly.
The guts of what we wish to discuss come in amendment No. 189, which would add paragraphs (d), (e), (f) and (g). Paragraph (d) would make it transparent what training were expected. It is clear that roles to be undertaken under the new system will
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require training. The briefing paper suggests that environmental health officers may need up to five days' training. That might vary, but one ought to be specific about what is required of local authorities.
Paragraph (e) is proposed because certain specifications are expected of local authorities. Paragraphs (f) and (g) also add to the guidance. We are trying to expand the degree of guidance needed so that the time and cost implications for local authorities are much clearer and more quantifiable.
10.30 am
The Opposition's general theme is to try to ensure that the costs of the new system to local government are fully compensated for. It is therefore important that central Government gives local government specific guidance so that it is much easier to quantify its duties. Legislation sometimes states that local authorities ''shall'' do something, and some authorities, which are gold-plated, do it very well, while others do it less well. We want the situation to be clear so that authorities know what the costs are and the Local Government Association can make representations to the Government for proper compensation.
Unless the Minister reassures us fully, we may be minded, at an appropriate point and with your indulgence, Mr. Conway, to press amendment No. 189 to a Division.
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