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Mr. Touhig: Shall I e-mail the hon. Gentleman?
Mr. Wiggin: E-mail the whole Committee.
Mr. Touhig: Clause 48 sets out the way in which a relevant body is permitted to publish information required by a direction made under clause 47—by publication
Amendment No. 42 would enable a body to publish information on standards of performance electronically in a way that is accessible to its electors. It would also, however, give the body the option of using the electronic medium instead of a local newspaper, not simply as an additional means of communication.
Electronic communication through e-mail and the internet has made huge advances in recent years. However, there is still not universal access to the internet, and publication in a newspaper is still the most reliable way of making information available to electors. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent local government bodies from using electronic methods of publication in addition to the method of publication already permitted by the clause. That would not
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require an amendment to the Bill.I am sympathetic to the aim of disseminating information as effectively as possible through the use of information technology, but at this stage, its use as the sole means of communication is premature.
Mr. Wiggin: I am sorry to hear that the Minister has such a downer on electronic communication. One of the Achilles heels in this debate is the ''printed for sale'' element. If we are talking about releasing information, we must keep our eye firmly on the ball: not everybody will want to pay for that information. The amendment was a constructive way of allowing it to be accessible without charge. The point that the Minister made about not everybody having access to the internet is fair, and I suspect that probably the best thing to do now is to leave the matter with the Government and hope that they will amend the Bill in their own time.
Mr. Touhig: May I help by clarifying things a little further? By ''permitted methods of publication'', clause 48 does not mean that no additional means are permitted; it simply means that publication by the permitted method is a mandatory minimum. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman. He will recognise that, as the e-Minister, I would not want to close the door on new technology, but we must recognise that such technology is not universally available. Local authorities publish many things in local newspapers, and that is often the most effective way of getting information out to their electorate.
Mr. Wiggin: That is helpful. I know that the Minister surfs my website regularly, and has made many comments about it. He will recall that he teased me mercilessly for not having a picture of my leader on it.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Which one? There are so many.
Mr. Wiggin: I now have a picture of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) on it. When I had the photograph taken, I mentioned it to him, to which he replied that the Minister was welcome to have his photograph taken with the Leader of the Opposition and put it on his website, for all the good it would do him. That was a generous offer.
Mr. Touhig: We welcome Leaders of Opposition parties to my parliamentary constituency. When the leader of Plaid Cymru came to my constituency there was a 37 per cent. swing to Labour in a council by-election. Please come.
Mr. Wiggin: That is a dangerous but generous offer from the Minister. As the Leader of the Opposition is Welsh, he may well have visited, and will visit again. I am sure that the local people will look forward to that with great excitement, as perhaps they did not when previous leaders of other parties have visited.
Returning to the amendment, I take the Minister's point and I hope that the information will be published electronically as well, because that will give greater transparency and will allow those who have access to
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the internet to find the information that they need more easily. We have now exhausted the issue, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 48 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 49 and 50 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1
Best value audit and inspections
Amendment made: No. 54, in page 43, leave out line 11 and insert—
'(d) a fire and rescue authority in Wales constituted by a scheme under section 2 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 or a scheme to which section 4 of that Act applies.'.—[Mr. Touhig.]
Mr. Wiggin: I beg to move amendment No. 39, in schedule 1, page 43, leave out lines 26 to 32.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 40, in schedule 1, page 46, line 24, leave out
', and in deciding whether to do so,'.
Mr. Wiggin: Amendment No. 39 would delete subsection (4) of proposed new section 2A of the Local Government Act 1999. That section, which appears in paragraph 3 of schedule 1, deals with the best value audit for Wales. This is a probing amendment to find out how the Government think that it will work in practice to exempt certain best value authorities from a functional duty. Amendment No. 40 would delete the words ''and in deciding whether to do so'' from subsection (4) of proposed new section 4A, as inserted by paragraph 9.
The wording implies that the Auditor General has the choice of whether to carry out an inspection of a best value authority, but under subsection (2), the Secretary of State may direct him to carry out an inspection, with which the Auditor General must comply. How, therefore, can the Auditor General have the choice to decide whether to do so, when he is under a compulsory direction?
3.15 pm
Mr. Touhig: Amendment No. 39 relates to the Auditor General's functions under the Local Government Act 1999 in respect of best value authorities in Wales under the Wales programme for improvement, to which I referred earlier. The amendment would prevent the Assembly from exempting by order a best value authority from certain requirements under the programme for improvement. That would take away a power that is available to the Assembly under the Local Government Act. As I understand it, the exemption is not in the sense of a relaxation of best value authority responsibilities. The power would be exercised if the Assembly had fundamental doubts about the exercise of a function by a best value authority and was contemplating making alternative arrangements. The Assembly has not had cause to exercise the power, but that does not detract from its validity and the Assembly's desire to
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maintain it. I trust that the hon. Gentleman agrees that it would not be appropriate to limit the Assembly's powers in this way.
Under amendment No. 40, the Auditor General would not be required to have regard to a recommendation by the best value authority's auditor, or to Assembly guidelines, in reaching a decision on whether to undertake an inspection of a best value authority's compliance with the requirements of the Local Government Act. However, he would be required to have regard to those matters in undertaking an inspection. It is equally appropriate for him to take account of an auditor's recommendation and guidance in coming to a decision on whether to undertake an inspection, as is currently the case.
The hon. Gentleman asked, in particular, how the Auditor General can decide whether to carry out an inspection, because the Secretary of State can direct him to do so. The Auditor General may decide himself to carry out an inspection, or be directed to do so by the Secretary of State. The option is there. Following that explanation, I hope the hon. Gentleman feels comfortable about withdrawing the amendment.
Mr. Wiggin: We have dealt with the fact that the Auditor General may himself decide to investigate, or may be ordered to do so by the Secretary of State. I suspect that if the Secretary of State orders it, he must do so and cannot make his own decision not to. That is fine.
Amendment No. 39 is designed to find out why the National Assembly for Wales would exempt an authority. The Minister said that that is one of its powers, which is right, and that the amendment would undermine that. However, before I withdraw the amendment, I would like to know why the Assembly should ever want to exempt an authority. I am sure he will be able to tell me now.
Mr. Touhig: As I understand it, this is not an exemption in the sense of a relaxation of the best value authority's responsibility. The power would be exercised if the Assembly had fundamental doubts about the exercise of a function by a best value authority and was contemplating making alternative arrangements. The Assembly has not had cause to exercise that power, but it should not be removed because it is valid and may be needed at some point.
Mr. Wiggin: I am happy with that and grateful to the Minister for his reply. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 51 to 53 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
<<56>>Clause 54
Restriction on disclosure of information
Mr. Touhig: I beg to move amendment No. 50, in page 35, line 25, leave out '145B or'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment No. 51.
Mr. Touhig: Due to the discussions that we have had right from the beginning of consideration—through pre-legislative scrutiny to Second Reading—I have no doubt that clause 54 is the part of the Bill that will exercise a great deal of interest. What the Government seek to do through the amendments might help to assuage some fears that have been expressed about the clause's ability to prevent disclosure of information.
The Government have worked to achieve consistency in the treatment of section 49 of the Audit Commission Act 1998 and clause 54. The clause will apply the restriction on disclosure of information to value-for-money studies undertaken at the request of education bodies under proposed new section 145B of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which we touched on earlier. Studies in respect of such education bodies are not covered by section 49 of the Audit Commission Act and the amendments will bring the provisions into line. As the studies are at a body's request, the release of information will be governed by the normal laws of confidentiality and the terms of the agreement between the parties.
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