| Employment Relations Bill
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Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): I welcome you to the Committee, Mr. Forth. We have had a debate on the Floor of the House on the money resolution, and I am grateful to the Minister for setting out exactly what the fund will do. The Bill's essence was based on consensus and consultation between parties. I praise the Minister and his team at the Department of Trade and Industry for the work that has been put into that. However, I have grave reservations about using the Bill as something on which to hang a number of extra measures. We will in due course discuss another new clause that concerns racism and infiltration by extremist organisations. I think that that is a fair use to which to put the Bill, but if the Government are to set up a union modernisation fund, that should have been part of the discussions and deliberations that took place going back two years at least. What representations has the Minister received from the trade unions? We on the Conservative Benches are sympathetic to trade unions; in many ways, we are pro-trade unions, and we want them to modernise. As he said, the TUC runs an excellent education programme. I also accept the need to assimilate modernisation. He says that the pace of change has been much too slow and he wants employers to be able to work with modern union organisations. That is all very well, but I am concerned that that is completely one-sided. Employers may well want trade unions to modernise, but do not the trade unions want the employers' organisations to modernise too? However, there is no question of money going to employers' organisations. If the previous Conservative Government had introduced a fund to give money to the CBI, the Engineering Employers Federation and the Institute of Directors, there would have been an outcry. People would have said that if those organisations were doing their job properly they would have introduced all the measures contained in the Bill. Column Number: 192 Mr. Sutcliffe: We need to kill this one from the start. Employers' organisation such as the CBI, the EEF and others receive money from the Government for projects that they become involved with. They have received large amounts of money over many years, and it is right and proper that they do. The money for unions might be used for union consultants to look at their structures. The CBI, the EEF and others have also had money from the Government to look at their structures. Mr. Bellingham: I do not doubt that. Of course, there are funds for both unions and employers' organisations, and they can apply to the European Union for certain pots of money, but we are talking about a specific fund that is dedicated to giving money to the trade unions. Two points concern me a great deal. First, there is no ceiling on the fund. New section 116A states:
but there is no ceiling. The Minister said in his statement that he envisages that the amount will be between £5 million and £10 million in total, with expenditure spread over several years, probably beginning in 2005. Why is there no more specific information? Substantial amounts of money are washing around the DTI. We know, for example, how much has been spent on the urban post office renewal scheme—£400-odd million. We know how much money there is in the various pots to grant aid to industry. It would be easy for some of that money to be diverted into this fund, because there is no ceiling on it. If the Minister is so confident and clear in his mind about how the money will be spent and about what the money is needed for, why is there no ceiling? Would it not be fairer to taxpayers if there were a ceiling? I am grateful to the Minister for going in detail through the measures and the activities that the money can be used to finance. However, new section 116A(3) in the new clause states:
perhaps as the Minister thinks fit. He may well think it fit to spend money on all sorts of things. He has talked about improving and carrying out existing functions, such as bringing in external consultants to carry out new functions. The new clause is very widely drafted, contains little detail and is open to abuse. The Minister clearly told the Committee that the fund will not be used to support the day-to-day work of the trade unions, will not impact directly on collective bargaining, and will not be used to support projects that could be funded by other Government programmes. We know that many trade unions have substantial amounts of money. Now, come on, surely he must realise that it would be as easy as anything for the Government to sit back and watch a union simply divert money away from one part of its organisation to another, so that money from the modernisation fund would indirectly be being used for exactly the things that he said it cannot be. Ian Stewart (Eccles) (Lab): Outrageous. Column Number: 193 Mr. Bellingham: I am sure that none of the trade unions that I am planning to meet in the near future would dream of such behaviour, but it would be possible. Ian Stewart: Why say it? Mr. Bellingham: I am saying that the provision is not specific. It is casually drafted. There is huge scope for abuse. The hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) made an excellent, telling contribution when we debated the money resolution on the Floor of the House. He was spot on when he said that the Labour party currently receives roughly £6 million a year from the trade unions. If the unions are serious about modernising—if they really do need to modernise—could not that £6 million be put to better use helping with that modernisation, not going to the Labour party? Mr. Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings and Rye) (Lab): Does that not apply to industry generally? When substantial contributions are made by businesses to the Conservative party—rather more than the amount going to the Labour party to which reference has been made—does that suggest that they should not be the beneficiary of Government grants and so on that might be substituted for the money that they give to the Tory party? Mr. Bellingham: That is different. Businesses are answerable to their shareholders, and shareholders can stop the money going through. Most businesses now ask their shareholders whether the money should be paid. It is a matter of choice. I accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but we are talking about a modernisation fund and a new pot of money. There is substantial uncertainty and great scope for abuse. As the Minister said, there are employers' organisations that expect to be able to deal with modern trade unions. Yes, there are, but why have those organisations not been treated even-handedly? Why did the Government not think, for example, of spending a pound on employers' organisations for every pound spent on the trade unions? The Conservative party is not in favour of increasing public expenditure any further on such projects—[Interruption.] The Chairman: Order. Mr. Stewart, you cannot avoid your vow of silence by making repeated sedentary interventions. You may wish to catch my eye, but I would rather you kept your sedentaries not only to the minimum, but to zero. Mr. Bellingham: Thank you for your ruling, Mr. Forth. I was listening with interest to you, but as you were speaking, there were so many sedentary interventions and that was telling. We are not in favour of increasing public expenditure unnecessarily at a time when public finances are under great pressure. At present, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is under a lot of pressure. He will have either to cut back on various public expenditure schemes or put up taxes. The children's fund is an example of expenditure that is under pressure. It is having swingeing cuts made to its budget with the result that there will be many disadvantaged Column Number: 194 children in my constituency who are autistic, dyspraxic or young offenders who will have the schemes that they rely on for support cut.Only the other day, we heard that Marines training in the Arctic circle did not have proper equipment. There is pressure on the Government's finances, yet they are coming up with a fund that is unlimited. Surely when public expenditure is being squeezed, the Government should at least put a ceiling on the fund. Jon Cruddas (Dagenham) (Lab): Just for clarity, is the hon. Gentleman in principle against the state providing finances for independent trade unions for whatever purpose, or against the scale of the proposed financial transfers involved? I am not sure whether he holds a position of principle or whether he does not like the open-ended nature of the transaction.
3.30 pmMr. Bellingham: Let me clarify the matter. As the Minister said, the last Conservative Government made money available for the trade unions. There was an education scheme and a scheme to help with secret ballots. Over time, a substantial amount of money went into them. There are precedents for such action. We are saying that the trade unions are well-run organisations. If they are doing their job properly, they will be undertaking such matters anyway. We are not convinced by the argument put to the trade unions by the Government. We have not seen any evidence of what the trade unions had to say. Where are the minutes of the representations and conversations that took place? Is there currently a compelling need for the trade unions to have public money to do things like having external consultations, communicating better with their members and increasing their membership? We are not totally against this in principle. What we are saying is that public finances are very tight and now is not the time to give money to trade unions or employers' organisations. If the Government are going to give money to the trade unions for this purpose some of it should go to employers' organisations on an even-handed basis. However, our view is simple; we do not think that any money should be spent, because Government finances are under great pressure. We need to take a close look at the draft rules and procedures for the fund. Why have the Government not yet published them? Surely that suggests that they have been in an awful rush? If this had been part of the whole consensus-building process while the Bill was taking shape, they could have got the rules and procedures in place. The Bill has been published, and there was not a murmur from the Minister on Second Reading about a modernisation fund, but all of a sudden there was a leak in The Times. Then he turned up looking rather sheepish and furtive and gave a nod and a wink to some of his Back Benchers who were obviously delighted that there would be a union modernisation fund. There were smiles all round on the Labour Benches. On the Conservative Benches, there was a sense of disbelief. If the Minister had been doing his job properly, he would have had those rules and procedures up his sleeve—they would already be in place. He said: Column Number: 195
The Minister does a lot of ''envisaging'' and often uses words such as ''probably'' and ''likely''. We need more information before we can vote in favour of this. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) rightly pointed out on Second Reading that we were concerned that the Bill would be a Christmas tree on which various baubles would be hung. We do not feel that this is a good use of public money. In the absence of a convincing argument by the Minister, we feel that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Mitchell) said, this is a bung to the trade unions. This is open to abuse. It is not a good use of public money. Therefore, we will vote against it.
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 2004 | Prepared 26 February 2004 |
